2909 1 2 MANITOBA CLEAN ENVIRONMENT COMMISSION 3 4 VERBATIM TRANSCRIPT 5 Volume 12 6 7 Including List of Participants 8 9 10 11 Hearing 12 13 Wuskwatim Generation and Transmission Project 14 15 Presiding: 16 Gerard Lecuyer, Chair 17 Kathi Kinew 18 Harvey Nepinak 19 Robert Mayer 20 Terry Sargeant 21 22 Monday, March 22, 2004 23 St. Lawrence Hall 24 Thompson, Manitoba 25 2910 1 LIST OF PARTICIPANTS 2 3 Clean Environment Commission: 4 Gerard Lecuyer Chairman 5 Terry Sargeant Member 6 Harvey Nepinak Member 7 Kathi Avery Kinew Member 8 Doug Abra Counsel to Commission 9 Rory Grewar Staff 10 CEC Advisors: 11 Mel Falk 12 Dave Farlinger 13 Jack Scriven 14 Jim Sandison 15 Jean McClellan 16 Brent McLean 17 Kyla Gibson 18 19 Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation: 20 Chief Jerry Primrose 21 Elvis Thomas 22 Campbell MacInnes 23 Valerie Matthews Lemieux 24 25 2911 1 LIST OF PARTICIPANTS 2 3 Manitoba Conservation: 4 Larry Strachan 5 6 Manitoba Hydro/NCN: 7 Doug Bedford, Counsel 8 Bob Adkins, Counsel 9 Marvin Shaffer 10 Ed Wojczynski 11 Ken Adams 12 Carolyn Wray 13 Ron Mazur 14 Lloyd Kuczek 15 Cam Osler 16 Stuart Davies 17 David Hicks 18 Elizabeth Hicks 19 George Rempel 20 David Cormie 21 Alex Fleming 22 Marvin Shaffer 23 Blair McMahon 24 25 2912 1 LIST OF PARTICIPANTS 2 3 4 5 Presenters: 6 Bob Wall - Thompson Chamber of Commerce 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 2913 1 INDEX OF EXHIBITS 2 3 Number Page 4 5 OTH 1004: Thompson Chamber of 6 Commerce presentation to the 7 Manitoba Clean Environment 8 Commission Wuskwatim Generation 9 and Transmission Project 3064 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 2914 1 INDEX OF UNDERTAKINGS 2 3 UNDERTAKING NO. PAGE 4 5 6 7 8 NO UNDERTAKINGS GIVEN 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 2915 1 MONDAY, MARCH 22, 2004 2 Upon commencing at 1:06 p.m. 3 4 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Ladies and 5 gentlemen, we shall begin. And as we have in other 6 instances, I will call upon Elder Sam Dysart to come 7 and launch the afternoon with a prayer. 8 MR. DYSART: Thank you. I'm very glad to be 9 here and I see a lot of familiar faces from back 10 home. I hope we have a good meeting today and going 11 on forward to the next day and to The Pas. Thank 12 you. Let us pray. You can pray with me in your own 13 language. God bless you and may God heal you. 14 15 (PRAYER) 16 17 THE CHAIRMAN: If you, for a moment, just stay 18 in the same frame of mind, I will read a little poem 19 which is also a prayer which I read today in the 20 Grassroots News of March 10th. It's called "Oh Great 21 Spirit." 22 "Oh Great Spirit of our ancestors, I 23 raise my pipe to you, to your 24 messengers, the four winds, and to 25 Mother Earth who provides for your 2916 1 children. Give us the wisdom to teach 2 our children to love, to respect and 3 to be kind to each other so that they 4 may grow with peace in mind. Let us 5 learn to share all good things that 6 you provide for us on this earth." 7 And it was written by Brian Norman. 8 Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. We 9 appreciate this opportunity, and when I say we, I'm 10 referring to the Clean Environment Commission, to 11 meet with you in Thompson. This community, along 12 with the community of Nelson House, are the two 13 closest communities to the proposed projects and 14 therefore, the two communities will be most directly 15 affected for good, we hope, and will also experience 16 the not so good effects if there are any which will 17 result from this project which is being proposed by 18 Manitoba Hydro and Nisichawayasihk. 19 I wish to thank you for your presence here 20 today in such large numbers. And I thank you in 21 advance for the contribution you will bring to this 22 process. So that we, as commissioners, may be better 23 able to understand the projects that are being 24 proposed so that we can also get a better grasp of 25 your views and hopefully you will be better 2917 1 understanding as well. And of course we are looking 2 forward to all enlightenment that we can derive from 3 this process so that we may make wise recommendations 4 to the Minister, decisions that will go towards the 5 betterment of First Nations of Manitoba and all 6 people of Manitoba. 7 My name is Gerard Lecuyer. I am a member of 8 the Manitoba Clean Environment Commission and the 9 Panel Chairperson for the Commission's Wuskwatim 10 Generation and Transmission Projects review. 11 With me today are four other Commissioners 12 serving on this Panel, Ms. Kathi Avery Kinew, Mr. 13 Robert Mayer, Mr. Terry Sargeant, Mr. Harvey Nepinak 14 at the end of the table. Mr. Sargeant here, as you 15 may have heard, has been recently appointed as the 16 new Chairperson of the Clean Environment Commission. 17 And in addition to the Panel today, I would 18 like to introduce the staff and advisors who are 19 assisting us with this review including the Secretary 20 of the Commission Mr. Rory Grewar over there. And if 21 you have any technical questions, you may ask Mr. 22 Grewar. And as well, the Commission Administrative 23 Secretary, Ms. Joyce Mueller who I presume is at the 24 table in the back. 25 The Commission Counsel, Mr. Doug Abra of the 2918 1 firm Hill Abra and Dewar. And from the technical 2 advisory team as well Ms. Jean McLellan. I think 3 she's in the back here from Price Waterhouse Coopers. 4 Mr. Dave Farlinger in the back as well from Energy 5 Consultants International and Mr. Mel Falk from Falk 6 Environmental. 7 Before continuing, I would like to explain 8 that the Manitoba Clean Environment Commission is an 9 arm's length provincial agency that encourages and 10 facilitates public involvement in environmental 11 matters and offers advice and recommendations to 12 government. 13 The Commission exercises its mandate through 14 public hearings, investigations, mediation and 15 education. You can refer to our website at 16 www.manitobacec.ca for information about the 17 Commission and this public hearing. 18 The Commission operates under the authority of 19 Manitoba's Environmental Act. It is also directed by 20 procedural guidelines to ensure that the hearings 21 remain fair and open forums for the exchange of 22 information and ideas and that they provide full 23 opportunity for public involvement in the 24 environmental assessment process in Manitoba. 25 We are here today at the request of the 2919 1 Minister of Conservation to conduct an integrated 2 public hearing respecting the Manitoba Hydro and 3 Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation proposal for the 4 development of the Wuskwatim Generation Station and 5 associated transmission facilities. 6 The Commission was mandated to conduct a 7 hearing to consider, firstly, the justification, need 8 for and alternatives to the Wuskwatim proposals. And 9 secondly, the potential environmental socioeconomic 10 and cultural effects of the construction and 11 operation of the Wuskwatim proposals. 12 The Commission was requested to conduct the 13 hearing in general accordance with the process 14 guidelines respecting public hearings which include 15 procedures for prehearing meetings or conferences and 16 for proprietary information. 17 Following the public hearing, the Commission 18 shall provide a report to the Minister of 19 Conservation in accordance with Section 7 subsection 20 3 of the Environment Act. 21 The hearing here in Thompson will go on till 22 five o'clock this afternoon at which time we will 23 adjourn for dinner and then we will reconvene at 24 seven o'clock and will go on in the evening until the 25 registered presenters get an opportunity to make 2920 1 their presentations. And we will reconvene tomorrow 2 morning at nine and we will adjourn hopefully around 3 five o'clock. 4 The Commission has already held hearings in 5 Winnipeg during the last three weeks. And following 6 the hearings here, the Commission will move on to The 7 Pas to hear presentation on the 25th and 26th in The 8 Pas. And then we'll reconvene back in Winnipeg on 9 the 6th, 7th and 8th of April and following that, if 10 necessary. 11 We begin today with opening remarks by Mr. 12 Larry Strachan of the Manitoba Conservation on the 13 environmental assessment and review process 14 undertaken to date and the licensing process to 15 follow the public hearing. 16 The co-proponents, Manitoba Hydro and NCN, 17 will then give a presentation on their Need For and 18 Alternatives To the Wuskwatim Generation and 19 Transmission Projects and the Environmental Impact 20 Statement for the projects. 21 Once they have completed their presentation, 22 all or any of you who wish may ask questions of the 23 proponents. The proponents, when we talk of the 24 proponents we always talk of Manitoba Hydro and NCN 25 so that you may obtain clarification or get a better 2921 1 understanding of aspects of the projects or so that 2 you may respond to some of the things you have heard. 3 Once the process of questioning the proponents 4 has been completed, those who wish may make a 5 presentation. Some of the people have already 6 registered with Ms. Mueller in the back or with Mr. 7 Grewar indicating that they wish to make 8 presentations, to express views and opinions. And we 9 welcome those presentations. That is how we get to 10 understand how you perceive the projects on which you 11 will be receiving explanations. 12 So all of you, in good time will get this 13 opportunity to speak to the Commission. Many people 14 have made presentations when we were going through 15 the hearing in Winnipeg. And we hope that the people 16 of Thompson area will also come forth and make their 17 presentation. As I said already, to make 18 presentations, all you have to do is indicate to Ms. 19 Mueller in the back or to Mr. Grewar that you wish to 20 make a presentation. 21 When you do come forth to address questions to 22 the proponents or to make presentation, we ask you to 23 speak in the mike. A mike will be set up here. And 24 when you do, please identify yourself and you will be 25 sworn in. No, you will not be sworn in to make 2922 1 questions but you will be when you make 2 presentations. Mr. Grewar will do that. 3 I think that about covers what I have to say 4 at this time except maybe if you wish a written copy 5 of the materials that will be recorded, everything 6 that is stated here will be recorded, you will see 7 there's a court reporter there and everything gets 8 written up and you can get copies of that by 9 contacting the reporters, I gather. Or if you want 10 some of the information, you can also access their 11 website which is www.reidreporting.com, Reid spelled 12 R-E-I-D. You can also make arrangements to obtain 13 transcripts or to purchase copies of transcripts in 14 various formats. The number that you have to call is 15 in Winnipeg, 947-9774. 16 At the conclusion of all the hearings when 17 everything is completed, the Commission will prepare 18 a report and that report will be presented to the 19 Minister of Conservation. 20 That is all I have to say at this time and 21 I'll call upon Mr. Strachan to make his presentation. 22 Mr. Grewar, do you have comments? 23 MR. GREWAR: No, Mr. Chairman. As Mr. 24 Strachan is moving towards the front of the room, I 25 was just going to mention there are about half a 2923 1 dozen maybe 10 additional chairs up front here for 2 anyone in the back. There are chairs here. And at 3 the break, we will also try and secure some 4 additional chairs but there are about 10 chairs here 5 at the front if anyone wants to come forward so they 6 are not standing. 7 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, I see many chairs here 8 empty. All right. I presume those who are still 9 standing choose to do so. 10 Mr. Strachan. 11 MR. STRACHAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good 12 afternoon, panel members, proponents, participants, 13 ladies and gentlemen. My name is Larry Strachan. 14 I'm the director of the Environmental Approvals 15 Branch for Manitoba Conservation out of Winnipeg. 16 And I'm here this afternoon to share with you, very 17 briefly, an overview of the Environmental Assessment 18 Process that we have undertaken on the proposed 19 Wuskwatim projects. 20 There are two projects under review, a 21 generating station project and a transmission line 22 project. There are Manitoba Environment Act licenses 23 required for the projects and also there's a federal 24 comprehensive study review and approval that is 25 required for the generation project. 2924 1 Because of the two provincial and federal 2 approvals, we decided to undertake a cooperative 3 environmental review process and this was pursuant to 4 an agreement that we have with Canada which outlines 5 the steps taken for a cooperative process. The 6 process is administered by a project administration 7 team chaired by myself and consisting of both federal 8 and provincial representatives. And the team, as I 9 indicated, is chaired by myself. 10 We use the Manitoba Environment Act process to 11 generate the necessary information and we recognize 12 that this public hearing is an important step of the 13 environmental assessment and licensing process to get 14 public information on the proposals under review. 15 The information that we generate through the process 16 must satisfy the legal requirements of both the 17 Manitoba Environment Act and the Federal Canadian 18 Environmental Assessment Act. 19 The proposals under review were filed for 20 formal review in December of 2001. And to assist the 21 proponents in preparing the environmental assessment 22 for the projects, we developed a set of Environmental 23 Impact Statement guidelines through a consultation 24 process led by this Clean Environment Commission. 25 And those guidelines were finalized in April of 2002. 2925 1 The Environmental Impact Statements, in 2 accordance with the guidelines, were submitted in 3 April of 2003. And then we subjected the 4 Environmental Impact Statements to a public and 5 technical review to determine whether or not the 6 information was satisfactory. To assist some 7 participants, we also established the Participant 8 Assistance Program which is a funding program under 9 the Manitoba Environment Act which allows funding to 10 be awarded to those people that apply for it to 11 participate fully in the public hearing process. 12 As a result of the review of the information, 13 two supplementary filings were required and there was 14 more specific information required for our federal 15 colleagues, Federal Fisheries and Oceans. 16 As a result of the review, our review, we 17 determined in October 2003 that the Environmental 18 Impact Statements and the supplementary filings 19 satisfied the intent and scope of the Environmental 20 Assessment Guidelines and that they were sufficient 21 to proceed to this public hearing process. 22 As I indicated earlier, the advice from this 23 public hearing process is an important component of 24 the Manitoba Environment Act assessment process. And 25 we will be considering that advice very carefully 2926 1 once this hearing process is completed. 2 Thank you. That's a brief overview of the 3 assessment process. 4 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Strachan. I now 5 call upon the proponents, those who will be making 6 the presentation of the project. 7 MR. PRIMROSE: Good afternoon. 8 THE CHAIRMAN: Good afternoon. 9 MR. PRIMROSE: Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman. 10 Good afternoon to all the people that are here today. 11 My name is Jerry Primrose, Chief of the 12 Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation. I would like to thank 13 you and the Commissioners and also all other 14 participants for this opportunity to speak again 15 about the Wuskwatim Generation and Transmission 16 Projects. 17 Thompson is in our traditional territory and 18 has been for over 7,500 years. The Nisichawayasihk 19 Cree Nation is committed to the economy of the city 20 and to the north. Thompson is the hub of Northern 21 Manitoba and a vital importance to our community. It 22 is where many of our members live and many of our 23 young people attend high school, college and 24 university. 25 We believe Thompson will benefit from the 2927 1 development of the Wuskwatim Generation and 2 Transmission Projects through new business 3 development and the overall investment in 4 infrastructure and economic diversification. 5 As a potential part owner of the generation 6 project, our First Nation will be able to support the 7 economy of the City of Thompson and the region. We 8 can help broaden Thompson economy and make it less -- 9 pardon me, more diverse. Already, we are seeing 10 economic diversity and investment in Thompson and I'm 11 proud to say our First Nation has been a part of 12 that. 13 In 1998, NCN purchased the Mystery Lake Motor 14 Hotel here in Thompson. We did this with the funds 15 generated by the NCN trust established as part of the 16 compensation we negotiated in 1998, or pardon me, 17 1996 as part of the Northern Flood Implementation 18 Agreement. This has been a successful investment for 19 us and we will continue to make prudent investments 20 here in the future. 21 Developing a brighter future for our people is 22 a primary goal of the Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation. 23 And we will continue to focus on that goal despite 24 the criticisms we have heard at this hearing over the 25 past three weeks. 2928 1 Mr. Chairman, Commissioners, during the course 2 of these hearings, it has been suggested we have 3 failed to protect the Aboriginal rights of our people 4 and failed to consider rights of other First Nations 5 in our negotiations with Manitoba Hydro, 6 particularly where the people of South Indian Lake 7 are concerned. 8 Well, many residents of South Indian Lake are 9 also members of Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation. We 10 don't want to speak for them. We don't speak for 11 them because they have told us not to as they work 12 towards their goal of independence from our First 13 Nation to establish their own reserve. 14 But we've always had a head man in South 15 Indian who is our liaison there. Under law, we are 16 obligated to them and we support and respect their 17 goals even though the process of separation like any 18 process of separation has been painful for our First 19 Nation. It is a process that began many many years 20 ago and the final separation agreement is yet to be 21 negotiated. 22 Still the NCN members of South Indian Lake 23 have been eligible to vote, to have their say on the 24 proposed Wuskwatim project. But it is no surprise 25 that they had been against the proposal because they 2929 1 have been against any decision or initiative of the 2 NCN council for over a decade. Yes, we are still one 3 nation in law but we went our separate ways many 4 years ago -- or to put it, many moons ago. 5 In 1992, the residents of South Indian Lake 6 finalized an independent settlement with Manitoba 7 Hydro to compensate them for damages caused by the 8 Churchill River Diversion. The NCN of Nelson House 9 had no role to play in those negotiations. Our input 10 was offered but it was not accepted. 11 Instead, we entered into our own comprehensive 12 negotiations with Manitoba Hydro. And finally in 13 1976, we settled our negotiations and developed the 14 compensation package which not only provided economic 15 support but gave us control over the development of 16 resources in our traditional lands. 17 It was this 1996 agreement that led us into 18 these negotiations with Manitoba Hydro for Wuskwatim 19 and these negotiations are ongoing. They are open, 20 transparent and they have been very successful. We 21 believe the progress we have made is due mostly to 22 our approach that has included our community in the 23 decision-making process. 24 Well, we have consulted with our members every 25 step of the way as a community. We haven't agreed on 2930 1 everything. The pain and suffering of our people 2 over the past 100 years has taken a toll. 3 As you have heard at this hearing, there is 4 divide between those of us who want to move forward 5 and those of us who cannot move forward. The issues 6 that divide us are not just about Hydro and the 7 flooding, these are complex and long-standing issues 8 that cannot be addressed by this forum. 9 The fact is we, as people, can never be fully 10 compensated for all our losses. We have suffered. 11 But slowly, we are putting the past behind us 12 through new treaties and agreements and by taking 13 responsibility for our own destiny. As a community, 14 while we haven't agreed on everything, we are moving 15 forward, guided by a democratic process and with 16 respect not only to the views of our members but to 17 outsiders as well. 18 And may I make it clear that when I said at 19 the opening of this hearing that some outsiders are 20 acting like economic terrorists, I was not referring 21 to other First Nations who face the same economic 22 challenges as we do, I'm talking about do-gooders who 23 cannot accept that our people are independent and 24 able to make our own decisions. We do not need their 25 protection. 2931 1 We have every right to use our natural 2 resources to aid us in our struggles for economic 3 survival and every right to frame the way we 4 participate. 5 We have also heard that if we are partners in 6 this project, we will be compromised in protecting 7 our environment. Nothing is more important to NCN 8 than our environment and to our people. Protecting 9 both is our primary concern. Of course, the proposed 10 Wuskwatim projects will have an environmental impact 11 but the impact is minimal especially when balanced 12 against the benefits. 13 As you have heard, the flooding will be less 14 than half a square kilometre. And this is because we 15 said no to the original high-head dam that was 16 proposed for the project because the flooding would 17 have been substantial and this was unacceptable to 18 us. We use our traditional knowledge which, combined 19 with western science, equals sustainable development 20 for both of us and also to the north. 21 To say we're not committed to protecting the 22 interests of our people is wrong. We have no 23 conflict of interest being here today as proponents 24 with Manitoba Hydro. Everything we have done in 25 working with Manitoba Hydro towards the proposed 2932 1 development has been for our future generations. We 2 are here for our children and their children. That 3 is responsible leadership. It isn't a personal 4 agenda for myself or for my council. We are working 5 to change the status quo. 6 There has been progress since 1996. We have 7 used our trust to develop community facilities 8 including Community Family and Wellness Centre, the 9 personal care home, just to name a few. And then 10 we've also built nearly 100 homes since that time, 11 yet that isn't enough. Everyday is still a struggle 12 for our people. 13 Try to imagine living in a three-bedroom house 14 with 17 people, elders, young adults and young 15 children. Imagine the tension and challenges of that 16 day, day in and day out. It's a common situation in 17 Nelson House because our population continues to 18 grow. 19 As I speak to you, I need 400 homes. To build 20 at Nelson House costs about $100,000 for each home. 21 That's $40 million plus the cost of supporting 22 infrastructure. How am I ever going to get that? I 23 ask myself everyday. We have to provide education 24 for our children. We haven't had any increases in 25 post-secondary school funding since 1989. How are we 2933 1 going to fund education for our growing population? 2 The annual increase in our population is about three 3 and a half per cent every year. 4 So if we're going to sit around and do 5 nothing, we are going to be in all sorts of trouble 6 in the future. 7 Part of our survival in the past was to live 8 off the land. But our youngest generation of people 9 cannot live off the land because they have never 10 learned the skills. And in 1970s and 1980s, 11 environmental groups promoted the anti-fur lobby. 12 Whether you also want to blame the flooding, the 13 result is the same. It killed our trapping industry 14 for a generation. Our trappers could not pass on 15 their traditional knowledge to the next generation. 16 Now even if the fur market makes a comeback, our 17 young people cannot go out and trap because they 18 don't have the skills. 19 Living off the land is no longer an option. 20 The majority of our people, even though we have heard 21 so-called experts testify at this hearing that is our 22 best option. 23 At the hearing last week in Winnipeg, Peter 24 Kulchyski, the head of Native Studies at the 25 University of Manitoba, suggested our people should 2934 1 somehow turn back the clock and become hunters once 2 again. He's dreaming if he thinks our rapidly 3 growing population would be able to survive today 4 based on a hunter's economy. And what makes him 5 think our young people would all want to be hunters? 6 They live in the 21st century and they want what the 7 21st century can offer them. Our young people want 8 to maintain our Cree culture but they also have the 9 dreams of a successful life in Canada as teachers, 10 dentists, doctors, even lawyers, engineers, artists, 11 musicians, business leaders and trades people. I 12 think Mr. Kulchyski needs a reality check. 13 We don't need his help in deciding what our 14 future should be. We will decide that. And we will 15 be responsible for our decisions. We live in our 16 community and we know what our culture is and what we 17 need to do to preserve it as we move forward. 18 Mr. Chairman and Commissioners, this is 2004. 19 It seems our people are trapped within the 19th 20 century standard of living. We want to catch up with 21 the rest of Canadians. Our young people want to 22 work. But today, living off the land has a new 23 meaning. That is using the profits and opportunities 24 presented by projects like Wuskwatim to train and 25 educate our people for real jobs and business 2935 1 development initiatives. They have the right to live 2 as well as anyone else with the same opportunity. No 3 one can deny them this. 4 We are here today in support of Wuskwatim and 5 the opportunities it represents to create a better 6 future for our people, our children and generations 7 to come. With that, Mr. Chairman, Commissioners, I 8 thank you and to all the people that are here, I 9 thank you for listening. 10 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Adams. 11 MR. ADAMS: Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman, 12 Commissioners, participants and members of the 13 community. My name is Ken Adams and I'm the 14 vice-president of the Power Supply of Manitoba Hydro. 15 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Chairman. Sorry, Ken, if I 16 have to interrupt, but there are copies of the 17 presentation at the back of the room and I wonder if 18 maybe our secretary could just move through the 19 audience so that people have those handy. Since 20 Hydro has made them available, they should be 21 distributed. 22 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Grewar. 23 MR. ADAMS: Okay. Today, we are pleased to 24 continue our presentation of the Wuskwatim Generating 25 and Transmission Projects and we look forward to 2936 1 continuing the very vigorous discussion regarding 2 their merits that we've had for the last three weeks. 3 If we do proceed with these projects, it will 4 be the first northern generating station we will have 5 commenced in nearly 20 years. In that 20 year 6 period, we thoroughly reviewed our approach to such 7 developments. Our current plans embody our new way 8 of cooperating with the local Aboriginal people and 9 our commitment to environmental stewardship. 10 In 1992, Manitoba Hydro became one of the 11 first major organizations in Canada to adopt its own 12 principles of sustainable development. Along with 13 our corporate vision and mission statement, our 14 sustainable development principles provide the 15 backdrop against which we evaluate all potential 16 projects and programs. 17 Our business environment is very complex and 18 is continually evolving reflecting the changing and 19 diverse perspectives of our customers, our owners and 20 other stakeholders. Our business environment is also 21 affected by unfolding events throughout North America 22 such as the structural changes in the electricity 23 industry and by global issues such as climate change. 24 The Wuskwatim project, we are proposing, has been 25 shaped by all of these influences. 2937 1 We firmly believe that the Wuskwatim 2 Development is an excellent project when viewed from 3 each of an environmental, a financial and a social 4 perspective. That is the so-called triple bottom 5 line approach. 6 I personally have worked in the hydro industry 7 in several countries for nearly 40 years and I'm 8 convinced that this project is an excellent example 9 of sustainable development in action. It fully 10 reflects the core values and the strategic priorities 11 recommended by the World Commission of Dams in 2000 12 and is also fully consistent with the International 13 Hydro Power Association's sustainability guidelines 14 recently released. 15 As I noted earlier, Wuskwatim marks the 16 introduction of a fundamentally new and different 17 approach to development of Manitoba's hydroelectric 18 resources. I would like to emphasize five aspects. 19 The first is that we are proposing to advance its 20 inservice date by about 10 years from what would be 21 required if we were building only to serve Manitoba 22 customers. This will help us continue to participate 23 in the very highly competitive and very lucrative 24 export market. Continued success in this export 25 market is needed to allow us to continue to offer low 2938 1 power rates in Manitoba. 2 The second aspect is that based in large part 3 what we have learned during our consultation, and as 4 Chief Primrose just recently mentioned, Wuskwatim has 5 been deliberately designed as a low impact project. 6 The original design was revised to reduce the size 7 from about 350 megawatts to 200 megawatts and to 8 virtually eliminate all flooding. Its operation will 9 be restricted to what we call daily run of the river 10 in order to limit water level fluctuations both 11 upstream and downstream. Also through this 12 consultation process, we have selected transmission 13 line, access road and construction camp locations 14 that respect environmental cultural and local 15 community values. 16 The third aspect is the unprecedented extent 17 of the consultation that has taken place. Hydro 18 initiated consultations with NCN in 1998. 19 Subsequently, starting in 2001, Manitoba Hydro and 20 NCN have consulted with every community in the 21 project area, whether they be in the immediate 22 vicinity, upstream, downstream, near the transmission 23 facilities or just in the region and interested in 24 the project. 25 Excluding our meeting with NCN members and the 2939 1 regulatory authorities and excluding the proceedings 2 in front of this Commission, we have participated in 3 almost 100 meetings with various interested parties. 4 And to date, we have filed binders with over 10 feet 5 of written material explaining the project and we've 6 made it available to the whole world on our website. 7 I doubt that there has ever been a comparable 8 project in Canada with such a comprehensive community 9 consultation and public participation process. 10 The fourth difference from previous projects 11 is that we have worked with both the provincial and 12 the federal governments and the communities situated 13 along the Burntwood and Lower Nelson Rivers to 14 establish a job training program well before the 15 project starts. This program will ensure that 16 northern Aboriginal people can develop the skills 17 needed to qualify for the higher skilled, higher paid 18 jobs that will be available on this project and on 19 future projects that we or others may seek to 20 undertake in the region. It will also help them 21 prepare for long-term employment in the operation and 22 maintenance of the facilities at other locations. 23 The fifth aspect of this project, what makes 24 it fundamentally different from any that we have ever 25 done before and the one of which we are most proud is 2940 1 our partnership arrangement with Nisichawayasihk Cree 2 Nation. As Chief Primrose explained, NCN has 3 participated as a full partner in all the planning 4 activities, the public and community consultation 5 process, the open houses, the environmental 6 assessments and all other aspects of the project. I 7 think it's fair to say that it's been an interesting 8 journey for both of us so far and we look forward to 9 a long and mutually beneficial association with NCN. 10 Before we move to the more detailed 11 presentation of the Wuskwatim project, it is 12 appropriate for me to confirm Manitoba Hydro's 13 intention with regard to certain other potential 14 sources of electricity supplied. We will continue to 15 pursue energy conservation and demand management, or 16 Power Smart programs in our terminology, to the 17 maximum level at which they are economically and 18 financially viable. 19 We will continue to pursue system efficiencies 20 or supply-side enhancement, again in our terminology, 21 again to the maximum level which is economically 22 viable. 23 We continue to explore the possibility of what 24 are often called alternative energy sources and we 25 have assumed that over the next five years, we will 2941 1 be able to purchase or construct the equivalent of at 2 least 250 megawatts worth without any negative 3 financial effect on the company. In fact, we don't 4 see these energy sources as competitors to the 5 Wuskwatim project but rather as complimentary. They 6 are certainly not mutually exclusive. 7 Returning to Wuskwatim, Manitoba Hydro is 8 fully aware of the importance of its activities in 9 Manitoba and that our actions today will leave a 10 legacy for future Manitobans. Hydro and NCN are 11 confident that when viewed in its entirety, we will 12 be able to demonstrate that Wuskwatim will provide a 13 source of clean, renewable energy that will displace 14 fossil fuels in central North America. It will 15 provide financial and reliability benefits to 16 Manitoba Hydro's domestic customers. And that it 17 will be profitable to both Manitoba Hydro and NCN. 18 We will also demonstrate that the 19 environmental effects of the project are not 20 significant and in fact, when viewed on a global 21 basis, there will be net environmental benefits. We 22 will demonstrate that the projects will provide an 23 economic stimulus to Manitoba particularly here in 24 Northern Manitoba. And we will show that the risks 25 associated with the proposed development are 2942 1 relatively low and readily manageable. 2 At this point, I will turn the presentation 3 over to Ed Wojczynski, who is our Division Manager of 4 Power Planning and Development, and Councillor Elvis 5 Thomas who is the NCN Councillor with responsibility 6 for the Future Development Portfolio. Mr. 7 Wojczynski, Mr. Thomas. 8 MR. WOJCZYNSKI: Councillor Thomas and I were 9 just going to call up the presenters and the 10 witnesses and introduce them. And I believe there is 11 one more witness, Mr. Grewar, who needs to be sworn 12 in. So we thought this would be an appropriate time 13 for that before going into the presentation. 14 MR. THOMAS: The Panel members that we have 15 with us are George Rempel. He's with TetrES. And 16 Dave Cormie, he's with Manitoba Hydro. Ed 17 Wojczynski, of course you see him up here at the 18 front. Cam Osler, he is with Inter Group. Stuart 19 Davies, he's with North/South. Elizabeth Hicks, 20 she's with ND Lea. Cam MacInnes, he's with Unis 21 Limited and works for NCN. And Lyn Wray, she's with 22 Manitoba Hydro. And these constitute our Panel 23 members for the day. Of course, you've already met 24 Chief Primrose and also Mr. Ken Adams who is the 25 vice-president for Power Planning with Manitoba 2943 1 Hydro. 2 With that, we'll start our presentation and 3 we'll have some closing comments after that. Oh, 4 Elizabeth Hicks needs to be sworn in. 5 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Grewar, would you do that 6 and then can we arrange to have the additional chairs 7 please in front for the members of the Panel? 8 MR. GREWAR: Yes, we can certainly. Ms. 9 Hicks, are you aware that it is an offence in 10 Manitoba to knowingly mislead this Commission? 11 MS. HICKS: Yes. 12 MR. GREWAR: Do you promise to tell only the 13 truth in proceedings before this Commission? 14 MS. HICKS: Yes, do I. 15 MR. GREWAR: Thank you. 16 17 (ELIZABETH HICKS: SWORN) 18 19 THE CHAIRMAN: I remind the people in 20 attendance that the other members are already sworn 21 in from the hearings that have begun in Winnipeg. 22 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Chairman, I'm sorry, we were 23 under the impression that you weren't going to all 24 sit up there until the questioning actually occurred 25 afterwards so you're not staring into the projection 2944 1 lens. 2 MR. WOJCZYNSKI: Yes, Mr. Chair. What we 3 thought is perhaps presenters can stay at the front 4 during presentation and then after that, we assumed 5 there will be a break, and then we could bring the 6 rest up if that would suit you, sir? 7 THE CHAIRMAN: That's fine. 8 MR. WOJCZYNSKI: Our first presentation is 9 going to be by Mr. George Rempel. He's going to be 10 presenting on behalf of NCN and Manitoba Hydro a 11 description of what is Wuskwatim and where are we 12 going to build it and give some idea of what the 13 project itself is about. We're going to then follow 14 with a few other presentations but we'll start with 15 Mr. Rempel. 16 MR. REMPEL: My job is to describe the 17 projects to you briefly. There are two projects, the 18 generation station and the transmission project. 19 They are extensively described in individual binders. 20 There's a binder Volume 3 for the generation station 21 that describes in great detail the generation 22 station. And there's another volume in the 23 transmission line EIS that also gives details of the 24 projects. What I'll do today is give you an 25 overview. 2945 1 Firstly, I'll provide a bit of perspective in 2 terms of where the project is located. Here we have 3 the City of Thompson. We have Nelson House community 4 over here. Nelson House is about 37 kilometers I 5 guess northwest of the project and Thompson is about 6 46 kilometers from the project. We show Snow Lake 7 there because there will be some transmission lines 8 going there and there's also The Pas over here. 9 What we are looking at in terms of the 10 environmental assessment is a 200 megawatt generation 11 station located at Wuskwatim Falls here. It's 12 actually at Taskinigup Falls which is the outlet 13 effectively of Wuskwatim Lake. It's on the Burntwood 14 River. 15 In constructing this project, there will be an 16 access road from PR 391 about 48 kilometers long. 17 It's a permanent all-weather access road. There will 18 be other infrastructures such as the switching 19 station, et cetera. There will be a six year 20 construction schedule. So assuming a 2004 start, 21 first power will be out in 2010. There are 22 transmission lines from the project to connect to the 23 existing hydro transmission system in Thompson, also 24 at Snow lake and at The Pas. 25 As Mr. Adams and Chief Primrose said, this 2946 1 project has been designed to minimize flooding. 2 Manitoba Hydro and NCN selected a low-head project. 3 They could have built a dam higher that would have 4 resulted in more power but also more flooding. This 5 design minimizes environmental effects. The flooding 6 in the upstream area of the dam is actually limited 7 to less than half a square kilometer. 8 The low-head design produces about 200 9 megawatts of power. If the high-head that was 10 originally contemplated had been built, there would 11 be 350 megawatts, but there would also be 140 square 12 kilometers of flooding. So we have less energy and 13 less flooding. This low-head design actually amounts 14 to the least amount of flooding of any generating 15 station in Manitoba Hydro's system. 16 I'm going to take a bit of time to describe 17 the site where the dam is proposed to be developed. 18 This is Wuskwatim Lake up here and we have Wuskwatim 19 Falls. The river flows this way, tumbles down 20 Taskinigup Falls and then continues on down the 21 Burntwood River. This distance here is about three 22 kilometres. A dam will be built here. This will 23 result in this water here rising about seven metres. 24 That means this area here, which we call the 25 immediate forebay, will see some flooding along here. 2947 1 This is about three kilometers. There will be a band 2 of flooding about 25 to 300 metres wide along here. 3 This band will be cleared before the flooding occurs. 4 But this is where the half square kilometre of land 5 will be flooded. There will be no flooding -- extra 6 new flooding on Wuskwatim Lake. The lake will be 7 held at the upper range of where it exists now on 8 occasion at elevation 234. 9 Further, in terms of building this project, 10 there will be a powerhouse and a spillway area here. 11 There will be three turbines put into a powerhouse. 12 So the river, instead of flowing here, will then go 13 through the turbines and generate power. This dam 14 will capture about 22 metres of head or drop and that 15 will be converted to electrical energy. 16 There will also be excavation over here in 17 order to ease the flow from Wuskwatim Lake into this 18 immediate forebay and into the turbines. There will 19 be channels cut into this area here to make for 20 better hydraulic conveyance. That extra material 21 will be piled over here. There will be rock riprap 22 along the edges. It will be rehabilitated after. 23 And that's the way the site will be developed. 24 I'm going to show you the effects of the 25 Wuskwatim project on water levels in the general 2948 1 area. This map will show it but I need to tell you a 2 little bit about the perspective here. Here is the 3 Rat River system, here is the Burntwood system. 4 Notigi is off the site here. Notigi is actually 5 about 90 kilometres from the site over here to the 6 west. Here we have Nelson House and it's about 37 7 kilometres in this fashion distance here. 8 There is Footprint Lake where the community is 9 located. Here's Threepoint Lake. As we go 10 downstream on the Burntwood, we find here a set of 11 rapids that are significant in terms of the water 12 regime. Cranberry Lake, Sesep Lake, Wuskwatim Lake, 13 Wuskwatim Brook. Here is the proposed site of the 14 station, Taskinigup Falls. Then we go downstream. 15 This is about I believe 13 kilometres to Opegano 16 Lake. Another 14 kilometres, we get to Birch Tree and 17 here is Thompson. 18 So what I'm going to do now is show you what 19 the effects of this station will be in terms of this 20 water regime. 21 Firstly there will be no changes in level 22 fluctuations at Threepoint or at Footprint Lake. The 23 water levels will change as they have in the past. 24 They change depending on the amount of flow that 25 comes down the Rat/Burntwood system. So if it's a 2949 1 wet year, the flows are higher and the levels are a 2 bit higher. That will continue as it has for the 3 last 18 or so years. 4 The water levels will change below Early 5 Morning Rapids. These are a set of rapids that act 6 as a divider if you'll like. The water levels that 7 are changed here will not pass upstream further up 8 past Early Morning Rapids either in open water or in 9 winter. 10 In this area here, there will be a fairly 11 stable water level. There will be small variations 12 near the upper range of what happens now. Right now, 13 the Wuskwatim Lake varies from 232.6 to 234.3. 14 With a dam, it will be held almost always at 15 234. In fact, there will be small variations about 16 13 centimetres or five inches on a daily basis. 17 That's excluding wind and wave effects. And that 18 variation comes about, in terms of wind, are three 19 units running, say, and two units are then -- one 20 unit is shut down. Or say if there's one unit 21 running and two units are put on, in other words 22 changing from one unit to two units, will change the 23 outflow a little bit and that water level here will 24 change a bit. 25 On a daily basis, the water coming down here 2950 1 will be the same amount of water that leaves. But 2 those variations from one unit to two units or two 3 units to three units will cause some water level 4 changes downstream. 5 Just immediately below the station in what we 6 call the tail race, there will be changes within the 7 day to a maximum of 1.3 metres, 4.2 feet during 8 normal open water operating conditions. Half the 9 time, there will be virtually no changes. 10 As we get to Opegano Lake, there will be water 11 levels to a maximum daily amount of 0.1 metres or 4 12 inches. Sorry, a median 50 per cent of the time 13 there will be .1 metres and maximum .45 metres, about 14 one and a half feet. As we proceed further down, the 15 water level variations are dampened even further. 16 And by the time you get to Birch Tree, there will be 17 a 0.1 metre or about 3 inches under open water on a 18 maximum basis. Half the time, there will be 19 virtually zero changes. 20 So basically, the water level variation occurs 21 between this area here and here, below Early Morning 22 Rapids to Birch Tree Lake. 23 A few remarks then on the Transmission Line 24 Project. The transmission line has to go from one 25 point to another. In between, there's a lot of 2951 1 flexibility and the routes are typically selected to 2 avoid environmental sensitivities. So route 3 selection is a big part of this planning process. It 4 involves balancing biophysical, socioeconomic, 5 technical and cost perspectives. Public input is a 6 big factor here. A lot of meetings are taken to 7 involve the local First Nations, Aboriginal people, 8 the elected officials, environmental groups, resource 9 users and the general public in the identification of 10 alternative routes and then also into the selection 11 of the preferred route. 12 The aim is to reduce the adverse environmental 13 effects and enhance positive effects and that's 14 written up in the Environmental Impact Statement. 15 This is a picture, a map showing the routes 16 that have been proposed. Here is Thompson. There is 17 the Wuskwatim project site here, Snow lake and The 18 Pas Rall's Island Station. There will be a line 19 built from Thompson into Wuskwatim. It will be the 20 first line built, 45 kilometres long. It will 21 provide construction power for building the site. 22 And it will look like this. It will be a steel 23 tower, 38 metres high, 60 metre right of way most of 24 which will be cleared. 25 The helicopter in this picture shows that 2952 1 there will be helicopter maintenance of the right of 2 way not construction. There will also be a line 3 similar to this from Snow Lake to The Pas. These are 4 existing stations at Herblet Lake and The Pas. It 5 will be a similar line like this. It will be 165 6 kilometres long. And we have one more line that's a 7 bit different here that's between Wuskwatim. That's 8 here between Wuskwatim and Snow Lake. There will be 9 two lines on one right of way. The right of way is a 10 bit wider then, 110 metres, and still has got two 38 11 metre high steel structures. That's to increase 12 reliability of power. So we have about 350 13 kilometres of transmission line to connect the 14 station into the existing system. 15 I believe that's the last slide on project 16 description. That's an overview on projection 17 description. And Mr. Dave Cormie will now give you 18 some indication of how this station might affect the 19 overall hydro operation. 20 MR. CORMIE: Thank you, George. My name is 21 David Cormie. I am in charge of Power System 22 Operation at Manitoba Hydro. I would like to spend a 23 few moments this afternoon describing the potential 24 for change in Power System Operation as a result of 25 the Wuskwatim project. 2953 1 Manitoba Hydro has 16 generating stations with 2 an installed capacity of around 5,500 megawatts. The 3 addition of the Wuskwatim station, about 200 4 megawatts, is a small addition. And there will be 5 some small changes to the way the power system 6 operates because we are adding to our capability. 7 But besides the local effects, in the 8 immediate project area that George spoke of a few 9 minutes ago, there will not be any significant 10 changes in water levels outside the specific project 11 area. 12 The first couple of slides I want to talk 13 about are the operation of the Churchill River 14 Diversion. The Churchill River Diversion will 15 continue to operate the way it has in the past. 16 Water releases at Notigi will be made in accordance 17 with the water supply. The design and planning for 18 Wuskwatim has assumed that the CRD will continue to 19 operate in its current form and that we will continue 20 to operate according to annual modifications under 21 our interim license that we receive from the Manitoba 22 Government under the Augmented Flow Program. 23 Wuskwatim will not change the CRD flow 24 patterns except for the flow patterns that are 25 changed on a daily basis as a result of Wuskwatim 2954 1 backing off a little bit at night and increasing 2 output during the day time. 3 Wuskwatim, on a daily basis, will pass the 4 flow that arise at the station. So every day 5 whenever water will rise from the releases upstream 6 at Notigi, that water will pass through the 7 generating station and there will only be minor water 8 level variations in the immediate forebay of the 9 generating station. 10 On the Churchill River again, Southern Indian 11 Lake reservoir will continue to operate as it has in 12 the past. This chart shows the water levels as they 13 vary throughout the years. In a normal year, the 14 level of Southern Indian Lake is raised between the 15 lower level of 843 feet to a high level of 847 and a 16 half feet. And that is usually reached in the mid 17 summer. And that's achieved by having reduced 18 outflows from Notigi and also the extra water that 19 runs off from the snow melt run-off in the spring and 20 summer rain falls and the lake is filled up. And 21 then during the fall and the winter period, the level 22 of Southern Indian Lake is lowered in order to 23 increase the flows going down the diversion route, 24 down the Burntwood River into the Nelson River. 25 And that pattern will continue regardless of 2955 1 whether Wuskwatim is built or not and will not be 2 changed by the construction of Wuskwatim. 3 The objective for operating the Churchill 4 River Diversion is to fill Southern Indian Lake up 5 and then draw it down so the extra water that's put 6 in storage in Southern Indian Lake during summertime 7 is made available to the downstream generating 8 stations in the wintertime. And it's our objective 9 each and every winter to draw the lake down so that 10 we make the most water available to the generating 11 stations downstream during the winter season. 12 Churchill River Diversion operation follows 13 this predictable seasonal pattern and that will not 14 change as a result of Wuskwatim. 15 There will be some small changes on a daily 16 basis to the way we operate the generating stations 17 on the Nelson River, specifically at the Kettle 18 Generating Station and the Stephens Lake Reservoir. 19 At night time, the power that Wuskwatim 20 produces is less valuable than in the day time. So 21 what we would like to do is to continue to operate 22 Wuskwatim but back our other generating stations 23 down. All our generating stations are connected 24 through the transmission system and they are all 25 linked together. So if Wuskwatim is producing power 2956 1 at night that we want to store, we will store that at 2 our Lower Nelson generating stations. 3 This chart shows the water levels on the Lower 4 Nelson River at the Kettle Generating Station. 5 Again, we operate the reservoir between a high level 6 of 463 feet to a low level of 453 feet. There's a 10 7 foot change there. For this chart, this is a chart 8 that shows the levels in June. Normally, the levels 9 range in a five foot range. 10 The blue line and the red line shows the 11 difference in our operation with and without the 12 construction of Wuskwatim. And there's only a very 13 small difference of less than an inch difference 14 between what the levels will be with Wuskwatim and 15 what they will be without Wuskwatim. And that's 16 because of the timing, the daily timing of our 17 generation of Wuskwatim. 18 Another major component of our power system 19 that will be affected, that could be affected by the 20 construction of Wuskwatim is the Lake Winnipeg 21 Regulation project. There are times of years when 22 Wuskwatim will produce power when that power is best 23 saved for release at another time. And it's through 24 the operation of the Lake Winnipeg Regulation project 25 that that savings occurs. 2957 1 On Lake Winnipeg, we have a license from the 2 government. And the government allows us to regulate 3 the lake between a high level of 715 feet and 711 4 feet. So there's four feet of level that can be used 5 for power purposes. During flood conditions, when 6 the water levels on Lake Winnipeg go above this 715 7 feet, Manitoba Hydro is required, by its license from 8 the province, to open the dam at Jenpeg to regulate 9 Lake Winnipeg to provide flood protection to keep the 10 levels on Lake Winnipeg as low as possible given the 11 flood conditions. 12 And you remember back in 1997, there was The 13 Flood of the Century. That's when Lake Winnipeg was 14 operated to keep the flooding minimal on Lake 15 Winnipeg. 16 During drought conditions, when the water 17 levels on Lake Winnipeg are very low, when they go 18 below the 711 feet, our license requires us to go to 19 the Minister of Water Stewardship and he sets the 20 outflows from Lake Winnipeg. So under extreme 21 drought conditions or on flood conditions, the 22 operation of Lake Winnipeg is set by the licence or 23 by the Minister. 24 In this four foot range, Manitoba Hydro has 25 the discretion to release water or to store water in 2958 1 Lake Winnipeg. During low water years, like we're 2 incurring this year, we're having a drought that 3 would occur about one year in every 50 years, we 4 operate the lake in a very conservative manner to 5 ensure that there will be enough electricity supply 6 available for Manitobans if the drought were to 7 continue. So we go into a conservation mode. 8 In the conservation mode, in the drought mode, 9 in the flood mode, these types of operations won't be 10 affected by the Wuskwatim project. 11 There is the potential for change during the 12 periods when water conditions are normal and we are 13 allowed to operate Lake Winnipeg for system 14 economics. And there is a potential there when we 15 can store the output from Wuskwatim and save it for 16 future times. And that would result in small changes 17 in outflows from Lake Winnipeg that would otherwise 18 not occur if the project had not been put in place. 19 So the question is how will the power system 20 operate or what will the water levels be in the 21 future with and without Wuskwatim? Manitoba Hydro 22 has some computer models that we run to simulate how 23 the power system will operate in the future. And 24 this is a chart that shows water levels on Cross Lake 25 with river flows and water supplies for the period 2959 1 1970 to 1990. And these are the water levels that 2 would occur on Cross Lake without the construction of 3 the Wuskwatim project. 4 Water levels you can see fluctuate from very 5 high levels to very low levels. The high levels are 6 during periods of floods. 1974 there was a very 7 large flood, 1979 a large flood, 1986 a large flood. 8 Water levels are high because there's a lot of water 9 coming down the rivers. Conversely during low water 10 years, like the droughts of the late eighties, the 11 droughts of the early eighties and 1977, water levels 12 are very low just because there's not a lot of water 13 flowing in the rivers. 14 So the water level fluctuations are occurring 15 because Mother Nature is giving us lots of rain and 16 lots of run-off or like what's happening this year, 17 very little rain or run-off and so the water levels 18 are low. So this is what our computer models are 19 predicting without the construction of Wuskwatim. 20 We can now put into the computer model what 21 can happen if we build Wuskwatim and we can compare 22 the black line, which is the prediction of levels 23 with Wuskwatim to the predictions without Wuskwatim. 24 And there are very very small changes in water levels 25 on Cross Lake comparing the two situations with or 2960 1 without Wuskwatim. So this is what leads us to 2 believe that there will be very small, almost 3 imperceptible changes in levels as a result of the 4 project. 5 For a lake like Cross Lake, water level 6 changes are occurring. We talked about the 7 difference between lowest levels and highest levels. 8 Right now, levels range about eight feet between a 9 very low dry year and a very high wet year. And so 10 the lake sees levels changing eight feet just due to 11 variation in rainfall. You can also see water level 12 changes around four feet due to wave effects. Ice 13 effects are around a foot. The wind causes the water 14 levels to change about half a foot. And our 15 operating at the Jenpeg Generating Station causes the 16 levels to change on a daily basis of about two 17 inches. 18 When we put Wuskwatim in, we expect that in 19 the summertime, there will be a very small, slightly 20 lower level of water level about .1 of a foot, a 21 little bit less than a foot -- sorry, a little less 22 than an inch, water levels will be about an inch 23 lower with the project than without. This is in the 24 average summer time. 25 Depending on how Manitoba Hydro sells the 2961 1 power, and it's our intention to sell the power from 2 Wuskwatim with a firm sale, it's minus .1 of a foot. 3 But with if we were not to sell it as a firm, a 4 product to a customer, as a sensitivity we did the 5 calculation what the level difference would be. And 6 the water level then in the summertime is about 4/10 7 of a foot, approximately 5 to 6 inches higher during 8 the summer under that sensitivity if we were not to 9 have a firm sale. 10 That is not our intention. Our intention is 11 to sell the power under our firm long-term contract. 12 So in conclusion under the water regime, we 13 don't expect any change to the Churchill River 14 Diversion operation or the water regime outside the 15 study area. There will be no perceptible change to 16 the Lower Nelson water levels and no perceptible 17 change in outflows from Lake Winnipeg. And no 18 perceptible change in water levels affected by -- on 19 those lakes affected by Lake Winnipeg regulation. 20 And we provided these water level effects to 21 our environmental team for their review to see what 22 the impacts from those might be. Thank you. 23 MR. MAYER: Mr. Chair, I think we should make 24 clear, because all of us understand when you are 25 talking 400 odd feet, that our lakes aren't that 2962 1 deep. And those of us who have been listening to 2 this presentation for a number of weeks recognize 3 when you're talking like the 400 level, we're talking 4 about feet above sea level, Mr. Cormie? 5 MR. CORMIE: That's correct, Mr. Mayer, 6 thanks. Good point. 7 MR. WOJCZYNSKI: I'm Ed Wojczynski for 8 Manitoba Hydro. I'm Division Manager of Power 9 Planning and also Environmental Licensing at Manitoba 10 Hydro. And I will be speaking on what's called Need 11 For and Alternatives To for Wuskwatim and that's 12 really what is the overall justification for 13 Wuskwatim. What are the alternatives to Wuskwatim? 14 And what are the economic and financial conclusions? 15 But I'm going to start off perhaps with a bit 16 of an explanation that we actually have two sets of 17 studies or two assessments in our Clean Environment 18 Commission process. We have what's called the Need 19 For an Alternatives which is, as I said, I was 20 looking at the justification for Wuskwatim. And 21 that's what I'm going to be speaking on. 22 And then after that, we have another part of 23 the review process and that's dealing with the 24 Environmental Impact Study for Wuskwatim and that's 25 dealing with the environmental impacts of Wuskwatim 2963 1 itself. So I'm only going to be dealing with the 2 first part and that's the Need For and Alternatives. 3 And this overhead gives a bit of a summary as to what 4 Need For and Alternatives is about. And our outline 5 for that comes from essentially the instructions 6 given or the request to the Clean Environment 7 Commission to look at this. And what they said is 8 that we should be looking that the CEC should ensure 9 that all of the alternative options were considered 10 and that Wuskwatim was selected on reasonable grounds 11 including economic viability as an export project. 12 And there's a mention of Wuskwatim in its 13 environment. 14 So we did an evaluation of looking at 15 Wuskwatim. And we've got a partnership here, NCN and 16 Manitoba Hydro, but when looking at the economics and 17 is it good in the province to build it or not. We 18 didn't look at the parts of the project that are 19 owned by Hydro or owned by NCN, we looked at the 20 entire project from an environmental licensing 21 benefit. 22 But secondly, we were also asked to 23 demonstrate what the effects are on Manitoba Hydro's 24 customer rates and also on the financial stability of 25 Manitoba Hydro. So the second part of the analysis 2964 1 was Manitoba Hydro itself. It's not NCN now looking 2 at what happens to our income, what happens to the 3 rates to Manitoba Hydro customers in the future. And 4 in that part of the submission, we did account for 5 the partnership arrangements and look specifically at 6 Manitoba Hydro's interests. 7 So starting with why Wuskwatim. And overall, 8 in one sentence, the reason we're proposing to 9 proceed with Wuskwatim is that it's an economic 10 profitable project with benefits for all Manitobans 11 including those in Northern Manitoba. And secondly, 12 because it is a very clean project with much less 13 environmental impact than the generation it 14 displaces. And that in a nutshell is why you want to 15 proceed with Wuskwatim. 16 This overhead expands on that somewhat and 17 gives a bit of the details. And we've got a few 18 thousand pages that expand on it some more. But 19 starting, the primary one is that Wuskwatim -- we're 20 looking at what's called the Need For now. And I'm 21 not going to be talking about Alternatives. That 22 will be later on. Right now, just for Wuskwatim, 23 what is the need for Wuskwatim? It will provide 24 economic, financial, environmental and reliability 25 benefits from increased electricity exports. What 2965 1 we're suggesting is that we advance Wuskwatim. 2 Our conclusions are, and I'll talk about that 3 later, that we would need Wuskwatim around 2020, 4 about 16 years from now, anyways, to meet domestic 5 load in Manitoba. But we're proposing advancing it 6 to 2010 so that we can export the power from that. 7 And we see that as providing a lot of benefits. 8 Manitoba has amongst the lowest electricity 9 rates in the whole developed world. Of all the major 10 electric utilities in the whole developed world, 11 we've got the lowest rates or amongst the lowest 12 rates. And a good part of the reason for that is 13 we've had profitable exports and Wuskwatim would 14 allow us to continue doing that. But there are other 15 benefits as well. 16 One other I'll mention briefly is that by 17 exporting hydroelectricity into our neighbouring 18 jurisdictions, we displace coal and natural gas and 19 that reduces greenhouse gas emission and other 20 emissions as well. And we see that from a global 21 point of view being a large benefit. 22 Moving on to Wuskwatim will provide clean 23 renewable energy. We've had a design for Wuskwatim 24 that was already mentioned where we have reduced the 25 flooding so there's very little flooding at 2966 1 Wuskwatim. We've had a number of other important 2 parts of our design to minimize the environmental 3 impacts including how we're going to operate it. 4 We've had a partnership arrangement with NCN to make 5 sure it's designed properly and that there's going to 6 be local benefits. Not just NCN but also to others 7 in the north. So we see this as being a very clean 8 renewable energy project and we've got the whole 9 Environmental Impact Statement that speaks about that 10 and we'll have a presentation following this one that 11 deals with that. 12 Whenever one is doing an investment, one 13 always has to look at the risks. We've done an 14 extensive risk assessment for Wuskwatim and concluded 15 and confirmed that the risks are very few for 16 Wuskwatim. There is a relatively low risk for 17 Wuskwatim and any of the risks that are there are 18 quite manageable. 19 The next point, the fourth point, is a bit of 20 a byproduct but it is still an important one. And 21 that is that proceeding with Wuskwatim will provide 22 benefits and economic stimulus to all Manitobans 23 including those in the north and especially northern 24 Aboriginal people. And so we see this as providing 25 major benefits. We're going to have, for example, in 2967 1 our special emphasis with Northern Aboriginal people, 2 we're going to have a pre-project training program. 3 That's already beginning. There's going to be 4 employment preference provisions on the project. 5 We're going to have business opportunities for people 6 in the north. And again, we have the partnership 7 with NCN which provides direct benefits. So we see 8 this as being an economic stimulus for Manitobans. 9 Moving on to the other part of the Need and 10 Alternatives is the Alternatives. Manitoba Hydro, on 11 an ongoing basis, we look at the full range of 12 possible electricity resources we could add in the 13 province. And we have concluded that there are a few 14 that are the most environmentally and economically 15 attractive to pursue. 16 Mr. Adams referred earlier to PowerSmart or 17 Conservation. We have been active for over 10 years 18 in promoting conservation in Manitoba and we are in 19 the process of expanding that and are looking at even 20 expanding it more than we are going to. So we view 21 PowerSmart or Conservation as something very good in 22 Northern and Southern Manitoba and we're looking at 23 doing more of that. 24 We look at alternative energy and one that's 25 the most prominent right now is wind generation. We 2968 1 have a commitment to proceed with around 250 2 megawatts of wind and if there was even more wind 3 that was economic, we would proceed with that as 4 well. 5 We have a large system already. You're 6 familiar with some of the generation in the north. 7 You've got transmission and we are looking at, 8 wherever we can, improving the efficiency of that 9 existing system so that we can get more power out of 10 it and without having significant impacts or huge 11 costs. And so we're looking at that as the third 12 area of energy. 13 And we look at other new generation. We look 14 at hydro, we look at coal generation, gas generation, 15 very briefly nuclear, not very much there. And we 16 look at a range of other new generation. We have 17 concluded that hydro is the most attractive out of 18 those and that Wuskwatim is the most attractive out 19 of the hydro. 20 So we have concluded that proceeding with more 21 conservation, improvements in the efficiency of our 22 existing system, alternative energy, particularly 23 wind, and Hydro, and here particularly Wuskwatim, are 24 the four legs of an economically and environmentally 25 diverse portfolio that we are proceeding with. 2969 1 So a bit of background. We've got a lot of 2 generation in Manitoba. Why do we need more? So 3 this graph gives some explanation of what we're doing 4 with our energy in the province, electrical energy. 5 At the bottom, we're going from 2006 out to 2038. 6 And it's a graph of the energy in the province, 7 electrical energy used or consumed. So it's going 8 from 17,000 gigawatt hours to 33,000 gigawatt hours. 9 And those numbers are very hard for anybody to get a 10 sense of what are these gigawatt hours? 11 Wuskwatim is around one and a half thousand 12 gigawatt hours. You can see the distance from this 13 line to this line is how much dependable energy 14 Wuskwatim would produce. So you can get a sense of 15 the scale on this graph. 16 So what this graph shows, starting off with is 17 what load do we have in the province from the 18 electricity that's used in the province by the lights 19 here, by Inco, by all the other uses of electricity 20 in the province. And you can see it's this line 21 here, and that's our forecast for into the future. 22 And it's a pretty boring straight line. Reality is 23 it will be faster in some years, slower, it will be 24 up and down, uncertain, but that's sort of an average 25 long-term forecast. 2970 1 And then on top of that, we have to plan for 2 the exports that Manitoba Hydro is already committed 3 to, particularly in the United States but not just 4 the United States. And that's this over here. You 5 can see the exports are on top of our domestic load 6 and these are the contracts we have already signed, 7 not ones we're thinking about, not ones we're 8 negotiating with, the ones that are already committed 9 and signed. And you can see out around 2017 there is 10 very little export committed after that. 11 So essentially after 2017, what we have to 12 plan for is the domestic load in Manitoba, not 13 exports, although we could commit more exports later 14 on. 15 Then this line here shows what is the supply 16 in Manitoba today and into the future from our 17 existing system and the Power Smart we're putting in 18 and the other things we're already committed to 19 doing. You can see it's higher than our exports and 20 our Manitoba load here. So we have some surplus 21 energy still that we can still export. And Mr. 22 Cormie still makes sales on a day-to-day or 23 month-to-month or year-to-year basis on exports. 24 But you can see that the supply in Manitoba 25 actually shows itself going down and then more or 2971 1 less flattening out. And what happens around here, 2 around 2018 is that we have coal units in the south, 3 a unit at Brandon. We have natural gas-fired units. 4 We have two at Selkirk and we have two at Brandon as 5 well and they are assumed to retire starting around 6 2017/18. 7 The other thing is we have some import 8 arrangements that are really partly tied up with our 9 exports where we can import energy from outside the 10 province if we're in a drought. And some of those 11 end as well although we keep some going forever. 12 So you see there's a reduction in our supply 13 at the same time as our load is coming up. And 14 around 2020, they cross over. That means if we have 15 no more exports that we commit that around 2020, we 16 would need to put in a new supply in Manitoba to make 17 sure that if there's a drought, we can meet the load 18 in Manitoba. And our studies have shown consistently 19 that Wuskwatim is the best next generation supply to 20 do that. 21 Now, what we are also proposing though is to 22 not just build Wuskwatim in 2020 for domestic load 23 but also to advance it for export. So that's why we 24 show here Wuskwatim coming in in 2010. And you can 25 see that we then have that Wuskwatim additional 2972 1 energy is essentially available for export and then 2 after 2020, it's available to use for load in 3 Manitoba. 4 So what have we learned from this graph? Two 5 things; that over time, the exports are going to get 6 smaller as our supply goes down and our load goes up 7 and over time, we're going to have less and less 8 exports; and secondly, that we're going to need 9 additional supply down the road. And Wuskwatim can 10 fulfil both of those roles. 11 So that was what Wuskwatim could do. But why 12 build Wuskwatim? Why not build something else? 13 This is a graph talking about some of the 14 other -- the main other options that we have looked 15 at, that Manitoba Hydro has looked at. And what 16 we're showing here is the cost of building each one 17 of these sources of supply in a cents per kilowatt 18 hour. 19 And what we do, and this is a fairly simple 20 calculation we do for screening purposes. We take 21 the capital cost of the project, we take the 22 operation cost, the maintenance cost, if you're using 23 coal or gas, the fuel cost, any taxes, transmission 24 cost, environmental mitigation community compensation 25 cost, we take all those together and do what's called 2973 1 a life cycle analysis. And also, the profit you 2 would have to have if you built the project. You 3 take all of those together and divide them by the 4 energy and what you get is the cents per kilowatt 5 hour. 6 Now before I go any further, I should explain 7 that this is not what you'd want to do to make a 8 final decision to proceed because you have to do a 9 more full-scale analysis that has other factors in it 10 like what are the system costs? If you take one of 11 these resources and put them on the system, what 12 happens to the rest of your system? How do you have 13 to operate it? Is there room on the tie lines for 14 more export? What will the export rates be? A whole 15 bunch of issues. And so what we do is a screening 16 analysis with this kind of information. And then we 17 take a few of those and do a much more detailed 18 analysis which has these other factors in it. 19 But this is useful as a starting point because 20 you can figure out which are the ones that are the 21 most important to look at. 22 And we start off with what's called Power 23 Smart or demand-side management, DSM. It's the 24 lowest cost resource that we can find in Manitoba. 25 So we're doing all that is low cost in Manitoba. If 2974 1 you wanted to do more DSM above what we're looking at 2 here, the costs would be higher. So these are the 3 costs for what we have done or are doing or are 4 planning on doing. 5 Then we move to the next one and that's new 6 hydro. And we've got a range there of 6.6 cents to 7 7.6 cents. Those are the costs for Wuskwatim, 8 Conawapa and Gull. Wuskwatim is the lowest cost of 9 the three and that's the one we're focusing on and we 10 find it the most attractive out of the hydro right 11 now. 12 If we move on to wind generation, there's 13 uncertainty in wind costs for a number of factors. 14 One of them is how much wind are you going to have? 15 So this is the cost for wind generation for if you 16 were putting in wind generation that had a 25 per 17 cent capacity factor to a 40 per cent capacity 18 factor. And there's other factors that affect it as 19 well, but if we can just focus on that for now. You 20 can see they're roughly the same cost but this does 21 not include the cost of taking the wind which is 22 uncertain. You don't know if the wind energy is 23 going to be available today or not or tomorrow of 24 firming up that wind. And there's a significant cost 25 to doing it. 2975 1 So it's an apples and oranges comparison here 2 and you have to throw in these firming costs and 3 system costs to be able to compare with the hydro. 4 But it tells you there is some good potential here. 5 And we have committed to proceeding with 250 6 megawatts of wind. 7 So these three resources plus improving our 8 existing system we've determined are the main ones to 9 look at. But we could have looked at other ones and 10 we did look at other ones. 11 Putting in new gas generation in Manitoba, 12 there's different ways of doing it. The cost is 13 going to depend on what will natural gas cost. No 14 one knows what natural gas cost is going to be down 15 the road. These assume that natural gas costs will 16 be around 3 and a half dollars per million BTUs. It 17 turns out that the gas cost over the next year, say 18 one year from now, is around $6.00 per million BTU. 19 So it will be much higher than what we've got here. 20 However, we expect gas prices will come down but 21 probably not as low as we've used here, somewhat 22 higher. So the gas generation is fairly expensive. 23 Plus there will also be environmental costs from the 24 emissions from the natural gas that would make the 25 gas generation more costly. 2976 1 It's even more true for coal generation. We 2 have got coal on here. What we do at Manitoba Hydro 3 is no one knows what the environmental regulation 4 down the road is going to be. So we start with a 5 business as usual. We say what are the rules that 6 are already in place? What are the laws that are 7 already in place? Say what are the costs of building 8 gas generation or coal generation either in Manitoba 9 or in export jurisdictions? So we do a business as 10 usual. 11 But then we say if things are going to get 12 probably more environmentally stringent down the road 13 in the future, we don't know how quickly or how much, 14 so we do a few different scenarios particularly for 15 greenhouse gas regulation. And that increases the 16 cost. That's another reason why there's some 17 uncertainty as to what the costs are going to be. 18 And we take that into account. And then we also do 19 the same when looking at our export market. 20 And when we look into the export market, we 21 know that if you have more environmental stringency 22 in the future, there will be less coal built, less 23 coal, more natural gas, more wind, more other 24 sources. But in the end, what Wuskwatim will be 25 competing with would be gas generation or coal 2977 1 generation mainly. 2 Now there's other sources, biomass, fuel 3 cells, photovoltaic, nuclear, whatever, we have 4 screened those out as being something worth 5 developing in Manitoba. 6 So what are the conclusions we have drawn in 7 our economic analyses on Wuskwatim? First of all, 8 that Wuskwatim is a very economic project 9 particularly given that it's a relatively low level 10 of risk. Secondly, we've done extensive risk 11 sensitivities and determined that Wuskwatim's 12 economics are robust with respect to the 13 sensitivities, whether there's drought, low export 14 prices, higher capital cost, a whole range of 15 sensitivities we've done. 16 The third conclusion is, and there's been a 17 lot of discussion in our process the last three weeks 18 and early in the interrogatories, if you built a 19 whole bunch of more wind instead of the 250 and put a 20 whole bunch of more DSM, you wouldn't need Wuskwatim. 21 We have looked at what is the maximum amount 22 of DSM and wind that could reasonably be economic as 23 a sensitivity and upper bound and determine that 24 Wuskwatim would still be economic and its economics 25 will only be slightly reduced. So we're confident 2978 1 you could proceed with all the economic wind DSM and 2 Wuskwatim and all three would still be economic. 3 THE CHAIRMAN: What's DSM, Mr. Wojczynski, for 4 everybody here? 5 MR. WOJCZYNSKI: Yes. I'm sorry, I slip into 6 technical jargon. DSM is the energy conservation or 7 Power Smart. 8 So those are the economic conclusions. And I 9 have mentioned earlier we also have to look at what 10 about Manitoba Hydro itself? What will happen to the 11 rates for the customers in Manitoba? Will the 12 company still have a strong financial stability? 13 And we've done extensive looking at that and 14 concluded that there will be no adverse effects on 15 Manitoba Hydro's financial stability as a result of 16 investing in Wuskwatim. We have to look at the debt 17 ratio, the debt equity ratio. It will not be 18 significantly impacted. They are negligible. And 19 also at our net income, the earlier years of the 20 project when it's starting up. 21 Later on in the later years of the project, 22 we'll have the revenues from the project so we're not 23 worried about the debt ratio later on. It's the 24 earlier years when you're starting up with Wuskwatim 25 that you're most concerned with debt and net income. 2979 1 And in those earlier years, there will not be any 2 additional rate increases due to Wuskwatim. 3 In the long term, we get the benefits and we 4 get improved long-term financial performance from 5 Manitoba Hydro's share of the Wuskwatim project. And 6 our prediction is that there will be customer rate 7 savings. Assuming that the profits from Wuskwatim go 8 into rate reductions, that the rates will go down 9 starting six to eight years after the project starts 10 and the rate reductions will continue after that. 11 So overall, we have concluded that Wuskwatim 12 is a very economically and financially attractive 13 project and that it doesn't preclude building any 14 other projects that are viable and that it's the best 15 project for us to be seeding with at this time. 16 Thank you. 17 Our next presentation is going to be dealing 18 with the Environmental Impact Statement. And Cam 19 Osler from Inter Group is going to be starting with 20 that presentation. 21 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Wojczynski, it's 20 to 3:00 22 and I know we wanted to go through the whole 23 presentation because you have to change the set-up a 24 bit but after Mr. Osler, there will still be other 25 presentations I gather. So maybe we should stop for 2980 1 a moment here and have a break. So let's take a 15 2 minute break here. 3 4 (PROCEEDINGS RECESSED AT 2:42 P.M. 5 AND RECONVENED AT 3:00 P.M.) 6 7 THE CHAIRMAN: Can everybody please 8 find a chair as quickly as possible. For those of 9 you who wanted coffee and found out there was none 10 when you got there, some is being made and there 11 will be some after a short while. Give it 15, 20 12 minutes, then you can go at any time after that. 13 We will continue with the presentations from the 14 proponents, Manitoba Hydro and NCN. And I believe 15 it is Mr. Osler that continues at this point. 16 MR. OSLER: My name is Cam Osler. I'm 17 going to present on the environmental impact 18 statements now which are the other sets of 19 documents with regard to the Wuskwatim projects. 20 The environmental impact statements were prepared 21 by Manitoba Hydro and NCN and they were assisted 22 by a team of, environmental management team, that 23 reported to both Manitoba Hydro and NCN. I'm 24 going to deal first with the integrated approach 25 elements of the environmental impact statements 2981 1 prepared for the Wuskwatim Generation Project and 2 also for the Wuskwatim Transmission Project. 3 To start with, the environmental 4 impacts statements, or EIS as they are often 5 called, were prepared in accordance with the EIS 6 guidelines that Mr. Strachan laid out to you 7 earlier that were prepared by the two governments. 8 These guidelines set out the information that is 9 required by the Government agencies, the Federal 10 and Provincial Government agencies. They provide 11 a project description and the refinement of that 12 description as we progress. When we start off we 13 do not know where the routes will be for the 14 transmission lines or for the road, for example. 15 During the course of the work, after the 16 guidelines emerged, we refined the project 17 description through a process of consultation and 18 analysis, to the point where we end up with a 19 preferred route for the transmission lines, and a 20 preferred route for the access road to the site. 21 Other elements of the description of what this 22 project is were similarly refined as we worked 23 along. 24 The EIS also provides an assessment by 25 the environmental components. Now, the 2982 1 environmental components are the aspects that are 2 laid out in the guidelines of the environment that 3 we are supposed to study. The physical 4 environment, the aquatic environment and the 5 terrestrial environment, the socioeconomic or 6 people environment and the heritage resources. 7 In each one of these environments, the 8 EISs look at what is the existing situation before 9 the projects occur and would occur without these 10 projects anyway. What is the effect of these 11 projects on each of these environments? How would 12 it be different today and in the future with these 13 projects? What types of measures can be taken by 14 the proponents to mitigate, to address the effects 15 that are adverse, to make them better, either in 16 their planning or after they get the projects up 17 and running if they learn that they are causing 18 problems contrary to the predictions or not even 19 foreseen. 20 Cumulative effects, which is looking 21 at the effects of this project in combination with 22 other projects past, current and future. Residual 23 effects, which is a term for what is the net 24 result after we looked at all of these things and 25 looked at all of the mitigation measures we should 2983 1 take. And environmental monitoring, meaning what 2 should we do prudently to monitor the outcomes so 3 that we can test what we have been saying would 4 happen, and we can look for unforeseen things that 5 we didn't say would happen, and we can manage the 6 process in an intelligent way as the projects are 7 developed, constructed and operated. 8 All of these activities in the EIS 9 were done with ongoing public consultation and 10 involvement throughout each of the stages and as a 11 key input to the discussion and the assessment 12 process. The EISs and the environment assessment 13 process incorporated local and traditional 14 knowledge as well as scientific information as 15 required by the guidelines. Local and traditional 16 knowledge was an essential part of the planning 17 and the environment assessment. The planning 18 meaning the selection of routes or the other 19 choices that had to be made in the planning 20 process, and the assessment being what I just 21 described. 22 Now traditional knowledge, this 23 Commission received information from various 24 people during the meetings that it held in 25 February 2002 about traditional knowledge, and 2984 1 there were different definitions that different 2 First Nations and different people have advanced. 3 NCN has put on the record in these statements its 4 own definition of traditional knowledge. 5 Traditional local knowledge, as we 6 approach it from our perspective, our attitude has 7 been one of respect towards the people who have 8 such knowledge and towards the knowledge that they 9 offer to the process. Traditional knowledge can 10 involve both personal knowledge and collective 11 knowledge. It can involve experience. It can 12 involve observations. It can involve values. It 13 does not necessarily in the way in which it has 14 been used by NCN mean it has to be just something 15 that comes from ages and ages of experience. It 16 could also be modern. It can be traditional or it 17 can be modern. We have taken this approach and 18 used it wherever we can throughout the 19 environmental assessment process, from the 20 information that the people have provided to us. 21 In the case of NCN information was 22 shared by them with the study teams and with 23 Manitoba Hydro. Their own traditional knowledge 24 interview study was done with their elders and 25 with their members. NCN members also worked with 2985 1 the study scientists doing the field work. They 2 have been doing this since the beginning of the 3 process in discussions with Manitoba Hydro and 4 they have been doing it actively in setting the 5 scope for our studies and things we should focus 6 on, and they have been doing it in terms of their 7 review of the results of our studies and reports 8 to this Commission and to the governments. 9 Information was also provided by 10 others beyond NCN, ongoing public consultation and 11 involvement activities beyond NCN took place with 12 First Nations and Aboriginal people. And one of 13 the focus points for our consultation was with 14 these groups. Also we met with local Government 15 such as Thompson and The Pas. We also met with 16 potentially affected stakeholders and resource 17 users such as trappers and fishers. Of course our 18 whole process also addressed this information to 19 and received inputs from the general public. 20 In summary, public consultation and 21 involvement as required by the guidelines was an 22 essential and integral part of the assessment 23 process for these EIS studies. Since 1997, as I 24 have just said, NCN has been actively involved 25 with Manitoba Hydro in all aspects of planning for 2986 1 these two projects. The public involvement 2 process, though, has been involving early and open 3 conversations and information with others, not 4 just with NCN. It has tried to provide 5 information about the projects, and to receive 6 views and opinions from people about the projects 7 and about the ways of consulting with them. 8 This process has a focus on Aboriginal 9 and First Nations in potentially affected areas 10 but it also in general had a focus on those that 11 could be potentially affected by either the 12 generation project or the transmission project. 13 Since 2001 we have had five rounds or stages of 14 public consultation and involvement beyond NCN. 15 We have provided extensive opportunities to people 16 to receive information and to provide input. We 17 have done this not only through website 18 information to the general public, but through 19 open houses and community meetings throughout the 20 many communities in the area along the Burntwood 21 and the Nelson and along the transmission routes 22 that were described to you earlier. This process 23 of discussion with people has lead to information 24 being provided to us that we have used in the 25 planning process. Particularly in transmission 2987 1 routing, and in the case of NCN, in the road and 2 selection of the access road route. 3 Since the EISs were filed we also had 4 a workshop for the various participants of the CEC 5 process when they were just getting started to 6 give them a chance to get up to speed quickly with 7 the various EIS information. 8 This process has been going on for 9 four years that lead to the EIS that you see 10 today, and the environmental effects that we are 11 talking about really are the end result that we 12 see happening when you compare the world as it 13 would unfold in each one of these environments 14 with the projects versus the situation that would 15 occur without the projects. 16 One of the things that we look at in 17 doing that is cumulative effects. And the 18 cumulative effects assessment was an integral part 19 of the overall EIS effects assessment. What do 20 cumulative effects look at? They look at all of 21 the effects that are likely to result from the 22 Wuskwatim projects when they are anticipated to 23 occur in combination with other projects or 24 activities that have been or will be carried out. 25 The will be carried out is an interesting issue. 2988 1 We don't just talk about hypothetical projects, we 2 are talking about projects that have a high 3 likelihood of being carried out, that are known to 4 be in the works right now, or that are very likely 5 to be carried out in the relatively near future. 6 In doing this process of looking at 7 cumulative effects, we considered local as well as 8 traditional knowledge. Our view of cumulative 9 effects assessment is an environmental impact 10 assessment done well. We do not view cumulative 11 effects assessment as some special, unique or 12 separate exercise. 13 In doing our approach with these EIS 14 studies, past and current projects and activities 15 were considered as part of the existing 16 environments, the situation that would emerge 17 without the projects. When we looked at future 18 projects and activities, we scoped them into our 19 studies by looking at the factors that I just 20 described. In the case of Manitoba Hydro projects 21 we looked at projects that were reasonably likely 22 to emerge and start construction within the next 23 five to ten years. Scoping was based on the 24 potential for overlapping pathways. Now when we 25 look at the effects of the Wuskwatim projects, we 2989 1 are essentially looking at pathways for effects, 2 how can this project, this transmission or this 3 generation station start to have an impact on the 4 environment? How can it start to have an effect 5 on the physical environment and maybe the aquatic 6 environment and then the terrestrial environment 7 and then ultimately on people in the area? So we 8 looked for pathways from these projects that might 9 overlap with pathways from other projects. The 10 CRD, for example, is part of the existing 11 environment, Churchill River Diversion. And we 12 also looked at pathways with respect to other 13 projects that might be developed in the future. 14 In the local areas that were described 15 by George Rempel from the Early Morning Rapids 16 down to Opegano and Birchtree Lake, we looked at 17 any other projects that might overlap with the 18 Wuskwatim projects generation effects in that 19 area. In the transmission study areas, we looked 20 for overlaps where the transmission lines were 21 proposed to be built. In some cases we think 22 about regional or global effects. Obviously air 23 emissions go well beyond the local area and the 24 issues of how we sell this power or how it might 25 cut our emissions somewhere else goes even beyond 2990 1 Canada perhaps. Global effects can also be in the 2 case of some migratory species such as birds. 3 Certainly regional effects can be the case in 4 terms of species that have a wide habitat range. 5 We considered in short, overlaps with past, 6 current and future projects, and we focused on 7 perceptible effects from the Wuskwatim projects 8 and the extent to which they could overlap with 9 other effects. 10 Now we are going to move on to look at 11 some of the, and only some of the effects in some 12 of the areas. We are not going to discuss the 13 physical environment, because George Rempel's 14 presentation has already focused on the water 15 regime and some of the key elements there. The 16 transmission studies, we are not going to get into 17 the geology today or the soils. We can answer 18 questions about it. Erosion and sediment are 19 subjects that we can answer questions about. We 20 won't get into the details of those, or debris, as 21 they might be in the short term affected by these 22 projects. We are going to move straight to the 23 aquatic environment and terrestrial environment 24 which Stuart Davies will now present to you. 25 MR. DAVIES: Hi, I'm Stuart Davies. I 2991 1 am going to be speaking to the water and land 2 environments. Now, we first started collecting 3 information for this project in 1998 with a joint 4 study process starting in the year 2000 and 5 continuing up to today actually. As Mr. Adams had 6 said previously there is about ten feet of 7 information in total. If we stacked it up it 8 would just about hit the ceiling. And one of the 9 challenges here is to take that information and 10 provide some key points that you could fit into a 11 brief number of overheads. But we will try to at 12 least hit on some of the key things, and we will 13 be able to answer questions as we go. 14 One of the main components of the 15 environment that NCN identified as being important 16 was water quality. We have collected about five 17 years of information on water quality to date and 18 we had planned on collecting another year in 2004. 19 We've collected it over a very large geographic 20 area. We originally started to collect the 21 information upstream of Early Morning Rapids to a 22 site just upstream of Thompson. When we went 23 through the public involvement process some of the 24 downstream communities did have some concerns and 25 asked if we could collect water quality further 2992 1 downstream, so we extended the amount of sampling 2 to an area downstream of Thompson. And when we 3 met with some additional communities they asked if 4 we could extend it further, and the water quality 5 sampling now goes to an area just upstream of 6 Split Lake, and actually links to water quality 7 sampling that is ongoing with another project that 8 goes right down to the estuary. 9 There is a broad range of parameters 10 that are being looked at. Total suspended solids 11 which is mostly the muds and clays that get into 12 the water when you are working, it becomes 13 suspended in the water and you see it going down. 14 All of the nutrients, things like nitrogen that 15 that make algae and things grow in the water have 16 been measured. All of the various metals, 17 including mercury, are being measured. And at 18 some specific locations we are looking at oil and 19 gas in the water and things like bacteria and 20 parasites. During construction we do expect that 21 there will be some site specific, some very 22 specific construction activities that will cause 23 some short term effects when there is work being 24 done in the water, like building the cofferdam, we 25 expect to see mud and other things in the water 2993 1 and that will be carried downstream. During 2 operation we don't expect there will be any 3 measurable effects once the station starts to 4 operate. Basically the water coming down will be 5 very similar and almost the same as the water that 6 will be leaving the generating system. There will 7 be some erosion that takes place along the shore 8 line, and right next to the shore, particularly 9 during the first five years of operation, you 10 would expect to see some muddier areas, but the 11 lake as a whole, the water quality will be pretty 12 well the same. 13 Now we expect that the net effect on 14 fish populations in the study area will be 15 positive. We expect there will be a small 16 increase in the four key fish species that we 17 looked at, Jackfish, Pickerel, Tullabee and White 18 Fish. And the reason that we think this is for 19 the area upstream of the generating station, right 20 now there is water level fluctuations caused by 21 the Churchill River Diversion of about four and a 22 half feet. The water levels are going up and down 23 during the year, and a lot of the shoreline is 24 being exposed and it is less productive than if 25 the water level was stable. So when the 2994 1 generating station is in place the water levels 2 will generally be within four inches of the top, 3 around 240 metres above sea level and the area 4 below that will be much more productive than it is 5 now. 6 Downstream of the generating station 7 we will see larger water level fluctuations than 8 we do right now, but the area is relatively small 9 as compared to the area upstream of the generating 10 station. The area upstream that will be 11 positively affected is about eight to nine times 12 larger than the area where we will see greater 13 water level fluctuations downstream. So if you 14 look at the net effect, we do expect that it will 15 be positive. 16 Now the Department of Fisheries and 17 Oceans plays a very important role in making sure 18 that if you are working in the aquatic environment 19 or in water, that the fish habitat and the fish 20 are protected in those areas. And they require 21 what they call a fish habitat compensation plan. 22 They have a policy that is called a no net loss 23 policy, which basically requires the proponents, 24 NCN and Manitoba Hydro, to make sure that if fish 25 habitat is damaged that you create or replace at 2995 1 least the same amount of habitat in that area or 2 in an area close to it to make sure that you don't 3 have a negative effect overall on fish. So over 4 and above the fact that we feel there will be an 5 increase in fish production, there will also be a 6 fish habitat compensation plan to compensate for 7 that area that will be negatively affected 8 downstream of the generating station. 9 There has been a very detailed plan 10 put towards the Department of Fisheries and 11 Oceans, and they are looking at it right now, and 12 I believe it is available on the website. So we 13 expect that the fish habitat compensation plan 14 will act to again further increase fish production 15 in the area. 16 Ultimately, though, the number of fish 17 that will be present in Wuskwatim Lake will depend 18 on the level of harvest that takes place. With 19 the road access, we do expect that the commercial 20 fishery will be more viable in the future than it 21 is today, because the fish can be driven out 22 rather than flown out. And we do expect that 23 there will be an increase in domestic harvesting 24 also on the lake. Mercury was obviously 25 identified as a major concern by NCN, so there was 2996 1 a lot of effort put towards studying mercury in 2 the documents. Because of the very small area 3 that is going to be flooded, we expect that the 4 total mercury increase will be small enough that 5 you won't be able to measure it in Wuskwatim Lake 6 itself. 7 We looked at both sort of the most 8 likely scenario and also the worst case scenario, 9 and even under the worst case scenario we are not 10 sure whether we will even be able to detect it. 11 Regardless of that, there will be sampling and 12 monitoring programs put in place to sample mercury 13 to make sure that we are right and we can tell 14 people who are using the fish what the levels are. 15 Now downstream of Taskinigup Falls there are some 16 small peat areas that could be affected by the 17 project and we expect that some of the fish, 18 particularly Jackfish that live and don't move 19 very far, may get some levels elevated, but they 20 will be relatively small, and very few fish will 21 be affected in that area. And concentrations of 22 mercury in fish downstream of Opegano Lake will be 23 very small. 24 Mercury is normally transported 25 through biota. Things like fish take the mercury 2997 1 down rather than the water. Mercury 2 concentrations in water are very, very low and it 3 is normally transported downstream through things 4 like fish. And because we have very little fish 5 movement in the area, fish can't swim upstream 6 over Taskinigup Falls, so there are not that many 7 fish that are going down, because once they go 8 down they can't get back up, that we don't expect 9 there to be very much mercury transport going 10 downstream, and we are sure that we are not going 11 to be able to detect it in other areas past 12 Opegano Lake. 13 Now, the Department of Fisheries and 14 Oceans has requested a detailed monitoring program 15 to make sure that we can understand what is 16 happening. Again, a very detailed program has 17 been put to them for consideration. The program 18 will look at and monitor water quality 19 invertebrates, all of the bugs that live on the 20 bottom of the lake, fish and fish habitat, mercury 21 levels, during both construction and operation of 22 the program. Total monitoring period is about 21 23 years, including the construction period. And we 24 have been trying to promote, particularly in 25 Nelson House and other areas, if there is young 2998 1 students that are interested in biology, this is a 2 really good opportunity, because the 21 year 3 period is almost a lifetime of an average job, 4 some jobs. So we are hoping that we do see 5 students getting into that area. 6 The monitoring program, we want to 7 confirm our impact predictions that what we say is 8 right. That we identify unexpected impacts, and 9 we find mitigation as required. Basically we want 10 to make sure what we said was going to happen does 11 happen, and if something happens that we didn't 12 think of, we will know that and we will be able to 13 put mitigation in place to correct that. 14 Now, during construction in regards to 15 the land environment, there will be environmental 16 protection plans that will be developed to make 17 sure that the very specific construction 18 activities do not have a harmful effect on the 19 environment. Most of the effects will be 20 relatively short term during construction, things 21 like noise may keep some of the animals away. 22 There will be some habitat that is lost. During 23 operation one of the key things that is going to 24 happen is a lot of effort is going to be put 25 towards cleaning the areas up that were used for 2999 1 construction, and rehabilitating the habitat to 2 make sure we don't have any long term effects on 3 either plants or wildlife in the area once the 4 project is operating. 5 I believe that is it, and I will turn 6 it back to Mr. Osler. 7 MR. OSLER: Thank you. The final 8 component of the environment that we looked at is 9 the socioeconomic environment and the heritage 10 environment. The socioeconomic environment 11 includes several factors, several elements that we 12 looked at, and the heritage environment of course 13 looks at the heritage resources. I will going 14 through them briefly looking at this slide. 15 On the resource use sense, in the 16 generation sector, generation project, we found 17 that there was a long term and positive effect on 18 the resource use in the local area, largely due to 19 getting access into an area that there isn't good 20 access to since the Churchill River Diversion. In 21 the case of transmission, the effects were 22 positive and negative, depending on what we were 23 looking at, and the question of access in the long 24 run is an important factor that we are looking at. 25 In the short term there could be some disruptions 3000 1 because of noise and other factors to do with 2 construction. 3 Land and water use was looked at in 4 the transmission case, and we documented the 5 resource areas, the traditional use areas, and any 6 other ownership areas where the projects would 7 exist. In the case of transmission lines, of 8 course, that took us through the Cormorant 9 resource management area and into the OCN 10 traditional use area. 11 In the case of economy, we were 12 looking at training and jobs and business 13 opportunities, which I will talk about in a 14 minute. We were also looking at the effects of 15 the option for ownership that NCN has and how that 16 could affect their community in the long term. In 17 the sense that if they take up that option, they 18 could be earning from this project some millions 19 of dollars in the near term after it starts 20 operating in 2010, and in future decades up to 21 tens of millions of dollars a year. 22 In the case of infrastructure and 23 services, we documented cases where there would be 24 infrastructure issues and we talked about them. 25 The most important one that we came up with was 3001 1 for NCN looking at the possibility of 2 in-migration, of people coming back to the 3 community. As the chief said earlier, they 4 already have serious housing issues in this 5 community, so if people start moving home to grab 6 opportunities, this could accentuate the problems 7 and could create additional problems. And we 8 found a very wide range of possible outcomes and 9 suggested different ways that the community could 10 work to manage and mitigate that concern. 11 In the case of personal family and 12 community life, there is a wide range of things 13 that you look at from transportation and access 14 and safety issues, where we didn't in the end find 15 material concerns. Esthetics, the change in the 16 physical look of the environment. The community 17 health issues that were discussed at some 18 considerable length in the NCN community. Social 19 well-being and culture issues, which again were 20 discussed at considerable length in the NCN 21 community. Given the issues associated 22 historically with hydro development and the 23 opportunities that could emerge in this case and 24 what it would take to manage those opportunities 25 well. 3002 1 In the case of transmission projects, 2 the issues of making sure that we avoided 3 culturally sensitive sites, spiritual sites, 4 historically important sites to the local people 5 and the Aboriginal people in the area. 6 In the case of culture, which also is 7 under personal, family and community life, the 8 issue, if we are going to disrupt an area such as 9 Taskinigup Falls, making sure it is done with 10 respect, with proper ceremonies, and we also take 11 care as we bring more people into the area to 12 protect local cultural sites and sacred areas for 13 NCN. And similarly concern and respect with 14 respect to any other cultural aspects that could 15 be affected by these developments. 16 Community organization and 17 coordination and goals and planning were also 18 taken into consideration. In short, I'm not going 19 to try and summarize all of the detail of those 20 areas, but I am pointing out that this subject 21 covered a wide range, and we are open to 22 questions. 23 In the case of heritage resources we 24 did not find any special heritage resources that 25 would be affected that we know about by these 3003 1 projects. The obvious historical and cultural 2 importance of Taskinigup Falls to NCN is clear cut 3 and the central issue addressed by NCN in 4 assessing whether or not it would like to partake 5 in this development. But there will be programs 6 to monitor, to test, as we proceed with these 7 developments to make sure that unknown resources 8 in the heritage area are not disturbed or 9 affected, and if they are found, as the projects 10 proceed, that they will be mitigated and dealt 11 with as is required by law and by sensitive 12 treatment with respect to Aboriginal rights and 13 interests. 14 I will look at one area in a little 15 bit more detail. Estimated total generation 16 construction jobs over the period of the six years 17 of construction from 2004 to 2010, if this project 18 proceeds as proposed. I would say that at the 19 outset that the transmission jobs, I'm not going 20 to talk about, they are very, very small by 21 comparison, and they only go for two years for any 22 one element of the project that we are talking 23 about. But the construction jobs can range at 24 peak, it says here 150 to 550. That is a typo. 25 It should say 540 rather than a 550. But it is a 3004 1 fairly wide range and peaks at a fairly high 2 level. 3 As you can see looking at this graph, 4 the level of jobs goes up and down each year, each 5 one of these -- what you are seeing is the first 6 two years of what we call stage one, which is the 7 development of the access road and the 8 infrastructure and the camp, and then you see the 9 generating station construction itself, which goes 10 on for four years, called stage 2 in our 11 presentations. In each year you see the jobs peak 12 in the summertime and go down in the winter time, 13 so the construction activity is quite seasonal. 14 The other thing that we are showing on 15 this graph is blue versus green in terms of 16 different levels of trade or skills. The blue 17 reflects what we call non-designated trades. 18 These are people who do not require as extensive 19 training and experience in order to get a job as 20 those who are in green there, the designated 21 trades. In general, the non-designated trade most 22 of the people probably require less than a couple 23 of years of training and experience to be eligible 24 for the jobs we are talking about. We are talking 25 about truck drivers, heavy equipment operators and 3005 1 labourers, and other skills of that ilk, catering, 2 administrative skills, et cetera. In contrast, 3 the green shows jobs that require considerable 4 experience and training in order to be qualified. 5 In order to be fully qualified as a designated 6 trade. A carpenter, electrician, plumber, you 7 need four years of training and education in terms 8 of class work. But you also need four years of on 9 the job experience and that requires usually a lot 10 more than four years to obtain to get the 11 opportunity for that. In order to be on this job 12 site as an apprentice, you would need at least two 13 years of experience and training in order to get 14 to at least level 2, if not higher. 15 So these types of jobs are very 16 important when you start building the generating 17 station, and they are major opportunities offered 18 by this project for people to get the experience 19 required to become fully qualified carpenters and 20 electricians. 21 All of the jobs in the generation 22 project on the job site will be union jobs, and 23 there has to be a collective agreement in place 24 for this project to proceed. The Burntwood Nelson 25 Agreement in the past is being renewed. It has 3006 1 not been renewed yet. So that at this point in 2 time we are making assumptions about what types of 3 BNA will emerge for this project, and other 4 generation projects for the next decade or so. 5 When we looked at this information and 6 we took into account the things that Ed Wojczynski 7 was talking about earlier, in terms of pre-project 8 training, the likely preference policies that we 9 think will emerge, the on the job training, and 10 the negotiated contracts that will probably take 11 place with NCN, we came to some estimates of what 12 we thought the job capture would be by northern 13 Aboriginal residents and by NCN. And we thought 14 that during the access road, infrastructure and 15 camp phase, that perhaps up to 90 percent of these 16 jobs might end up going to northern Aboriginal 17 residents. In the case of the generating 18 construction phase where there is a lot more prior 19 skill and experience required, our range was 20 something in the order of 31 to 42 percent might 21 go to northern Aboriginal residents. 22 These are fairly optimistic ranges 23 compared to the experience with Limestone where 24 the average experience during the construction was 25 around 25 percent going to northern Aboriginal 3007 1 residents. It reflects the extra effort, the 2 experience and the dedication of the parties to 3 try and achieve more than was achieved in the 4 past. 5 I would say in conclusion looking at 6 this, that you see just numbers here, but in each 7 case when somebody gets the opportunity to get 8 this type of experience and training, there is a 9 lot more to it than just the hours on the job and 10 the dollars, there is the entire experience that 11 you get and the future that it changes for you if 12 you are successful in dealing with it. It is 13 quite a change for an individual to have the 14 opportunity to successfully get the experience 15 that these types of projects offer. 16 Looking beyond just the jobs 17 themselves, the construction will include northern 18 business opportunities through negotiated 19 contracts being pursued with NCN. Limited 20 opportunities may also be available for 21 entrepreneurs to start small businesses. If a 22 contract cannot be negotiated with NCN, it will be 23 dealt with through restricted or open tendering. 24 And most contracts, including the general civil 25 contract for the generation project, will be 3008 1 through open tender. 2 To summarize, all of the things that 3 we have been talking about through the 4 environmental impact statements, the physical 5 environment, the aquatic, the terrestrial and 6 socioeconomic and the heritage, if we look at the 7 Wuskwatim generation, the key is it has been 8 specifically designed to be a low impact project. 9 As described earlier by George and others, the low 10 head design, keeping it to 200 megawatts rather 11 than 350, was selected to reduce the impact of 12 flooding. The modified operation, the run of 13 river operation, balancing inflows and outflows on 14 a daily basis most of the time, 97 and a half 15 percent of the time, was selected to modify the 16 impacts and control the impacts on the 17 environment. 18 Operation will reduce water level 19 fluctuations on an annual basis on Wuskwatim Lake 20 and limit the extent of water fluctuations 21 downstream from what they would have been if you 22 didn't take that type of operating approach. 23 Environmental and cultural 24 considerations are incorporated into the route 25 selection and the management of the access road 3009 1 through an access management plan among other 2 things. Environmental protection plans are to be 3 developed as required by the guidelines before 4 construction starts to ensure that work is carried 5 out so as to meet the regulatory requirements that 6 emerge from this hearing process and the final 7 decisions of the regulators, and from the proven 8 environmental protection practices that have been 9 established through past experience. 10 If we look at Wuskwatim transmission 11 project and summarize the overall conclusions of 12 the EIS documents, we see that it too has been 13 designed to minimize the effects on the 14 environment, and all of the environments that we 15 have been talking about. The potential effects 16 from the transmission project have been or will be 17 minimized through careful selection of the 18 proposed routes which will take into consideration 19 the effects on the environment, effects on people, 20 areas of concern, as well as the costs of choices. 21 Suitable design and construction 22 standards and practices. Transmission development 23 is not something that happens only once every 10 24 or 20 years, it has been happening on a regular 25 basis in this province. It has been licensed on a 3010 1 regular basis. There has been experience 2 developed and practices and standards that can be 3 applied again and again and can be improved on. 4 Application of Manitoba Hydro's standard 5 environmental protection practices is therefore 6 important. 7 The use of local and traditional 8 knowledge in the selection of routes and in the 9 careful review of what happens as the routes are 10 developed is important in terms of managing and 11 designing to minimize effects on the environment 12 and on people. 13 And finally the development of 14 environmental protection plans is required in the 15 guidelines before construction starts, and 16 outlines site specific measures will also play an 17 important role. 18 So overall in summary, the Wuskwatim 19 transmission and generation projects have been 20 designed to avoid and minimize adverse effects on 21 the environment and on people. They are expected 22 in our reports to create no significant adverse 23 effects, as we use this type of terminology for 24 environmental assessment. No significant adverse 25 effects on the environment or related effects on 3011 1 people. 2 Adverse effects will occur in some 3 areas. For example, there will be some increased 4 erosion in the first five years, and it will 5 continue to show effects over the next 20 years 6 after that. And there will be land use changes 7 and habitat changes where transmission lines are 8 developed. There will be changes in short to the 9 environment. But we do not, having looked at it 10 using the standards that we are supposed to use, 11 believe and conclude that these changes will be 12 adversely significant or likely to be significant. 13 Positive biophysical effects will 14 likely result from displacing global greenhouse 15 gas emissions from the sales from Wuskwatim being 16 used to reduce emissions from plants outside of 17 this jurisdiction, and from reducing annual 18 fluctuations in levels at Wuskwatim Lake that were 19 caused by the Churchill River Diversion in the 20 1970s. 21 Also positive socioeconomic effects 22 are likely to result during construction and 23 operation for people in the local region, meaning 24 NCN and the Thompson area in particular, of the 25 projects as well as throughout the whole province 3012 1 from the economic activity developed and the long 2 term water rentals and rate reductions that come 3 from these types of projects, or lower rates than 4 would have otherwise occurred. 5 In summary the project is seen to have 6 these types of conclusions in the environmental 7 impact statements that have been provided to the 8 public and reviewed to date in these hearings. 9 And that I think summarizes the end of 10 the environmental impact statement presentation. 11 Ed, did you want anything more to say in 12 conclusion? Councillor Thomas will provide some 13 concluding statements on behalf of all of us. 14 MR. THOMAS: As you have witnessed 15 from the presentation that has been done, we've 16 focused on providing you with information on the 17 whole project itself, what it all entails, an 18 access road going in to the Wuskwatim area from 19 mile 17. 20 You will also see that we've included 21 information on what is actually going to be at the 22 site where the dam is being proposed to be built. 23 We have a construction camp that will be set up 24 there. We also have the project itself that will 25 be situated, not on Wuskwatim Falls, but on 3013 1 Taskinigup Falls. And we see -- we have been 2 provided with information on what kind of effects 3 that this project will have. We have looked at 4 other alternatives as well. We have found that 5 through our exploration of needs for and 6 alternatives to, that the project in and of itself 7 displaces coal, gas and nuclear forms of energy. 8 But it does work to supplement or add to, or can 9 work together with other forms of energy such as 10 wind. We have also gone into the environmental 11 impact statement itself, what that all entailed. 12 We have come to the conclusions that there will be 13 very minimal impacts to the environment as a 14 result of our people's involvement in this 15 process. 16 If I may take you back a little bit, 17 we negotiated a 1977 Northern Flood Agreement 18 quite a while back in 1977. That framework proved 19 to be problematic for us as NCN, so prior to some 20 time in the early 90's we decided that we were 21 going to pursue a different avenue. It used to be 22 that non-Aboriginal consultants, lawyers, 23 engineering, you name them, they were in total 24 control pretty well of that particular process. 25 It wasn't very fruitful for our people. So Chief 3014 1 and Council back, I believe, in 1992 decided to 2 take the bull by the horns and take the lead role 3 in addressing the needs of NCN. Shortly 4 thereafter in 1996, an agreement was concluded. 5 It was brought to the people for their 6 consideration, and it was officially ratified, I 7 believe it was in March 1996. 8 And that agreement provided for an 9 article 8 process that requires that if there is 10 to be any future development that is to occur 11 within our traditional territory, that Manitoba 12 Hydro would be obligated to come to us first to 13 obtain our consent and to deal with compensation 14 issues prior to them starting another project in 15 our territory. 16 We responded to the situation in a way 17 that is unique, and I like to think of it as 18 rather historical in the way that we responded to 19 the situation. We have included our people in 20 this process in a way that has never been done 21 before. We've established a future development 22 portfolio, and I hold that portfolio, but I also 23 have my colleagues from Chief and Council that 24 work with me. The ones that have been working 25 with me quite extensively have been members of 3015 1 Chief and Council. I note my colleague Councillor 2 Agnes Spence and my colleague Councillor Darcy 3 Linklater, Chief Jerry Primose, and the rest of my 4 other colleagues have been quite involved in this 5 process as well. 6 In addition to that, we have engaged 7 the article 8 process to obtain funding to ensure 8 that we can meet the obligations that are before 9 us. In doing that we ensured that our people were 10 the people that were working to provide us with 11 information that was needed from the community and 12 also to give the information to the community. So 13 we have hired quite a number of people to do that 14 kind of stuff. 15 In addition, we have used many of our 16 own people to work with the environmental 17 management team. The environmental management 18 team I should also note is a team that is made up 19 of all of these professionals over here, but at 20 the same time we did not rely solely on the 21 experts, or the status of these experts. We 22 wanted to ensure that our people were involved in 23 the field work that was done to collect the 24 necessary information on which the environmental 25 impact assessment has been done. So we've done a 3016 1 lot of work in that regard. 2 We have also hired our own advisors, 3 they are legal, financial, they include 4 engineering. But instead of them directing us, as 5 appeared to be the case in the Northern Flood 6 Agreement situation, we directed them as to what 7 we want from them this time around. So things 8 have changed considerably, and I think we have 9 produced a good product. 10 You will note from the presentations 11 that have been done we have focused significantly 12 in the areas in employment and training, trying to 13 make sure that our people are the ones that are 14 working on this project as much as possible. But 15 at the same time we have not closed the door on 16 others obtaining opportunities in this project as 17 well. So we've arrived at a fairly balanced goal 18 with respect to employment on this project. We 19 have also focused on business opportunities. We 20 look at contracts that we can have, some direct 21 contracts that we can negotiate where we can 22 ensure the employment of our people plus others as 23 the need may arise. In addition, we have also 24 been involved in a process that gives us 25 33 percent ownership, potential ownership, of this 3017 1 particular project. We started off with 2 10 percent and worked our way up to 17.5 to 3 25 percent and then finally came to a conclusion 4 with 33 percent. It hasn't been a very easy path 5 that we have been traveling on. It has been quite 6 lengthy. We have been involved in this process 7 for about five or six years already. So, we are 8 not going into this in haste. We are not rushing 9 into anything. We have many, many of our people 10 involved in -- under the future development team. 11 Many committees, we have sub committees charged 12 with specific responsibilities and areas to look 13 at. 14 So we have come to a lot of reasoned 15 analysis and decisions based on our involvement. 16 And I believe that we have come up with a very 17 good project. One that minimizes environmental 18 impact to the environment, and one that maximizes 19 the benefits available to NCN by being involved in 20 a project of this sort. So with that I welcome 21 the Commissioners and everyone else here to our 22 traditional territory where the City of Thompson 23 is situated. Thank you. 24 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Thomas. 25 We have now reached this momentous moment where it 3018 1 is your turn to get involved in the process. 2 There are two different parts to this opportunity 3 that is yours to intervene in the process, one is 4 to get additional information, clarification, et 5 cetera, where you come to ask questions of the 6 members of the panel that have made the 7 presentation. So that will be the first part. 8 Once you have completed that portion, we will 9 begin the portion where you make statements, where 10 you make a presentation, where you say why you 11 support this project and why, or if it is the 12 opposite, why you don't. Or you want to offer -- 13 if it is views or opinions or suggestions that you 14 want to make, those are part of your presentation. 15 So we will begin. You have heard a 16 presentation, which is summarized but fairly 17 lengthy anyway. As you were sitting there 18 listening to it, perhaps questions have come to 19 your mind, and this is your opportunity. When we 20 were going through this in Winnipeg, the 21 Commission here had an opportunity to spend two 22 and a half days asking questions on the first 23 part, which was the needs for and the alternatives 24 to Wuskwatim. And we have started, we have had a 25 day and a half of questioning on the environmental 3019 1 impacts, and we are not finished with that. So, 2 we are not going to take this time to do that 3 today, we are going to give you the opportunity to 4 put in your questions. So the floor is open, if 5 you have questions come to one of the mikes, 6 either standing or at the table here, you are 7 welcome to come and ask your questions. Come 8 forward to the mike, identify yourself and ask 9 your questions. 10 MR. OSBORNE: Good afternoon panel, 11 Commissioners. I have a comment and a question. 12 In regards to -- 13 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Osborne? 14 MR. OSBORNE: Mr. William Osborne. 15 Thank you for reminding me. I have a question but 16 I also have a very, very deep concern about this 17 overall hearing process. English is not my 18 language. My language is in Cree. I'm very 19 concerned that the panel and the Commissioners did 20 not provide for me a translator. Mainly because 21 there is a lot of legal and technical language 22 that only technicians and legal people understand. 23 However, there are translators that can translate 24 the English language to my language so that I 25 understand the issues, the concerns, that have 3020 1 been expressed today. Will the Commissioners and 2 the panel respect and honour my language before we 3 proceed any further? I ask you that today. Thank 4 you. 5 THE CHAIRMAN: It is a comment that 6 you are making, Mr. Osborne, one that you made to 7 me at the break a while ago. And as I indicated 8 to you, if this had been raised with the panel 9 before we would have made -- we would have 10 endeavored to make every effort to try and 11 organize this. But no one raised that request 12 with us and, therefore, we have not come prepared 13 for that. We obviously, on the spur of the 14 moment, are able to do that. But I would also 15 tell you this; that there are many of these 16 technical words that you have heard about, I can 17 imagine some of them such as gigawatt, and demand 18 side management or other things of this nature are 19 also very technical for some of us, and are not 20 easily understood. But that is why, if you need 21 clarification about those, you have this 22 opportunity to ask for them now. I'm afraid that 23 it would not be easy to provide translation just 24 like that. And it would be a very lengthy process 25 and we would have had to make such arrangements 3021 1 beforehand. Unfortunately, as I stated before, I 2 think that in the announcements for these meetings 3 we had provided an indication that if we had such 4 requests, we would make attempts to organize this, 5 but we didn't hear any such requests. Sir. 6 MR. HART: (SPEAKING IN CREE) 7 I have come here to listen to your 8 presentation on the invitation of this hearing. 9 And I have spoken to you in my own language and 10 you are giving me this look that you didn't have a 11 clue what I was saying. 12 THE CHAIRMAN: You are right. 13 MR. HART: And then this hearing, as I 14 understood that the translation wasn't provided. 15 But I'm not volunteering. But when you were doing 16 this presentation and you look at this vast 17 territory, have you ever seen an eroded beaver 18 pond, starting on an eroded beaver pond. 19 (SPEAKING CREE). This is what they are doing to 20 our land, just like an eroded beaver pond, when it 21 is no good, the beaver abandon that. That is what 22 you are going to do. (SPEAKING CREE). We came 23 here to try and listen to those of us that have a 24 small understanding of your language. But you 25 know, in your God given language you are borrowing 3022 1 words that they make up from other languages, that 2 is why the English language is so complicated. 3 Nobody can really understand what they are saying. 4 Especially now with modern technology, nobody can 5 translate for you word for word what you are 6 saying. And yet you came here with the intention 7 that we can come and listen to whatever 8 presentation that has been presented so far. But 9 who is going to speak for the seven generations 10 from now, what will they benefit from this 11 project? Our elders have spoke for us for the 12 past seven generations, but there is another seven 13 generations that have to be addressed as to what 14 they would benefit from this project. 15 And I thank you for your time, and I 16 know you people are impatient, but I came here 17 with a good conscience. Even though I was left 18 behind by some of our band members, nobody wanted 19 to offer me a ride, I had to hitchhike here, and 20 my wife is probably wondering where I am. But 21 somebody has to come and speak their mind. And 22 also what I have learned from our elders is you 23 can say what you want, but as long as you don't 24 swear. That is the main thing. You can say 25 anything you want as long as you don't swear in a 3023 1 mixed group like this, especially when there is 2 women around. But people intend to forget that 3 not all of us graduated from grade 12. Some of us 4 are Plasticine dropouts. Some of us never went to 5 school. I'm speaking for the elders there. They 6 didn't go to school. They don't know what is 7 going on. 8 But my question is why is this hearing 9 taking place when in your red Bible there you have 10 article 8.3? Why you pass by that? Because there 11 is something in that statement that had to be done 12 before you continue with these hearings. I thank 13 you for your time. (SPEAKING CREE). 14 I didn't intend to come up and speak, 15 but one of my brothers stated that he wanted to 16 hear something in his own language. Thank you. 17 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir, would you give us 18 your name for the record, please? 19 MR. HART: My Christian name or my 20 traditional name? I have got two. 21 THE CHAIRMAN: Both please. 22 MR. HART: My Christian name is Nelson 23 Hart. (SPEAKING CREE) is my traditional name. 24 THE CHAIRMAN: Megwetch. I will defer 25 this to Mr. Thomas, perhaps he can, and I 3024 1 understand that there are documents that were 2 provided of the proposed projects in Cree 3 syllabic. Perhaps Mr. Thomas wishes to make a few 4 comments in Cree at this time, or perhaps even 5 describe some of the basic features of the 6 proposal because I would be at a loss to do it. I 7 can do it in French for you, but some people will 8 say they can't hear that either. 9 MR. THOMAS: (SPEAKING CREE) 10 I apologize, I can't translate all of 11 that for you, Commissioner. 12 THE CHAIRMAN: I realize that it was 13 probably a very lengthy question. I probably 14 asked you to summarize what the whole project was 15 about. And you seem to have done that. 16 Mr. Nepinak, you have a comment. 17 MR. NEPINAK: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 18 I would just like to invite the public here to, 19 you know, feel welcome to come and express in your 20 own language. Like the chair had said earlier, we 21 have been in Winnipeg for three weeks, and First 22 Nations have expressed their views regarding this 23 in their language. And we are in the process of 24 translating those areas that they presented. So I 25 would like to extend on behalf of the Commission 3025 1 here and as a member, feel free to, you know, make 2 your presentations, your questions in our own 3 language and we have I'm sure translators that 4 will help us down the road here to hear your 5 voice. 6 As you are aware, the hydro 7 developments first occurred in the south in the 8 Lake Winnipeg River. I think we have six dams, 9 you know, that our people sometimes still talk 10 about over there. So I just want to extend to 11 you, please feel free to express your 12 presentations in your own language. Megwetch. 13 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Nepinak. 14 And of course, Mr. Thomas, will have to practice 15 in that regard. Yes. If you want to ask your 16 question in Cree, then Mr. Thomas can answer the 17 question, otherwise members of the panel will 18 answer in English, and eventually the record will 19 be translated. But I remind you all, this is a 20 period of time for questions. Ms. Matthews 21 Lemieux. 22 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: Yes. I just 23 want to indicate that there are two people who are 24 in the room, Jimmy D. Spence and Charlie James 25 Hart who are willing to translate for the 3026 1 Commission if that would be of assistance to them. 2 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, that would be 3 useful. It would relieve Mr. Thomas for having to 4 do it all on his own. So if we do have people 5 able and willing to help in this regard, maybe 6 they can come forward. Can we find a chair at the 7 mike here where they could sit and help in this 8 regard? 9 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you wish to ask a 10 question in Cree? 11 MR. MOOSE: Either or. 12 THE CHAIRMAN: If you would like to 13 ask it in Cree, we would like to be able to 14 translate it immediately. Of course, simultaneous 15 translation, if we had been told in advance, 16 simultaneous translation takes preparation, and 17 technology-wise, we have to set up a booth and 18 somebody then translates as the words are spoken, 19 but that takes a great deal of preparation to have 20 established. So there is a chair here and a mike, 21 so as the questions are asked, maybe somebody can 22 answer, take turns to do that. So you can take 23 turns in translating. This gentleman wanted to 24 ask a question. You are deferring to him? 25 MR. MOOSE: Yes, he is giving me the 3027 1 opportunity to go first. My Christian name is Joe 2 Moose. My name predecesses Columbus, Joe Mooswa 3 (ph). I am proud to say my name is over 20,000 4 years old in this region, my last name that is. 5 My concern is this negotiated contracts being 6 pursued with NCN, if you will notice that in the 7 handout. I would like to say for the record I'm 8 in support of this project. I'm currently 9 unemployed and looking to, how would you say, 10 access a job. I have grade 12 as well as I 11 graduated from university. I guess in the past, 12 and if the panel doesn't mind, I will turn around 13 and talk to the people. 14 I guess in the past the way Hydro has 15 dealt with us as a people, and it is how would you 16 say, my comments in no way are, how do you say, to 17 shed light on the new way that Hydro is doing 18 business as it is now. But I guess it is in 19 regards to negotiated contracts being pursued with 20 NCN. And my question is this: It says limited 21 opportunities may also be available for 22 entrepreneurs to start a small business or as a 23 result of Wuskwatim spinoffs. My question is 24 this; in there I don't see the guidelines as to 25 what type of criteria will be in place to see who 3028 1 actually qualifies for these so called spinoff 2 contracts and what type of, how would you say, 3 rules and guidelines would be in place prior to 4 the construction of the project to ensure that 5 everybody feels that they have been treated with 6 equality and fairness? And the reason why I pose 7 that question is because, how would you say, in 8 the past, and before some of you were probably 9 still in college here, your predecessors from 10 Manitoba Hydro came to us in good faith and said 11 there will be this and this and this, and 50 years 12 later, I should say 30 some odd years later, I see 13 very few of my fellow band members benefiting from 14 hydroelectric projects. 15 And when I say this, this is not an 16 attack on Manitoba Hydro, but merely a reality 17 that exists. I go to Winnipeg quite a bit. I 18 have seen the big office at Taylor Avenue. I see 19 a lot of big offices all over the place. I also 20 meet -- one time I met 67 Hydro semis heading up 21 north to do work somewhere around the Lynn Lake 22 region. While I was driving I had to ask myself 23 this, if all of the work is up north, why are 24 these trucks coming from the south, why aren't 25 these jobs stationed like in Thompson? It is 3029 1 quite a well organized, structured setting. My 2 question is this, everything in the world revolves 3 around politics, does politics have it that the 4 Province of Manitoba -- I wish there was a 5 Government representative here -- have it that the 6 south again will get a better deal than the north? 7 And this doesn't have nothing to do with NCN 8 Government or Manitoba Hydro as a whole. Like the 9 presentation was stated earlier, the north should 10 be given equality and fairness, like (SPEAKING 11 CREE). That is a very common word in our Cree 12 language (SPEAKING CREE). That means being 13 unemployed, being homeless, jobless, like what 14 future do you really have, and when I ask myself 15 this, here is a new term for some of the people 16 here you might have not heard, a large portion of 17 multi-conglomerate companies like I.B.M. and stuff 18 like that, they are outsourcing jobs to India. 19 You have read that in the Time magazine. Three 20 million U.S. jobs have been outsourced to India. 21 Because people in India work for one fifth of the 22 pay of Americans. 23 So my question is this, when I come 24 down to Taylor Avenue, I have seen hundreds and 25 hundreds of computer terminals, Taylor Avenue, 3030 1 that big building there, as well as other Hydro 2 infrastructure sites around Winnipeg. My question 3 is this: Why couldn't a building of that 4 magnitude be put in Nelson House to guarantee 5 permanent ongoing jobs? This thing has been in 6 the planning process for many years. And when I 7 ask you this, the people from Hydro, it is a 8 challenge to you, not only to go beyond the good 9 work that Mr. Thomas has done and our Chief and 10 Council, but to envision even a different future 11 where 30 or 40 years from now 25 percent of the 12 jobs should be up north where the hydro is being 13 generated. I'm not a rocket scientist, but I fail 14 to see that concept where the destruction and 15 devastation is up north and there is 5,000 plus 16 jobs in Winnipeg. But according to the last time 17 I checked, the Hydro flows south. So I fail to 18 see why there is not a large office building like 19 Taylor Avenue here in Thompson where people can 20 sit, and some of them First Nations people, sit at 21 the computer terminal and type in stuff, process 22 invoices and stuff like that. 23 Right now, if you phone Visa, chances 24 are you could be phoning somebody in India and say 25 could I have my balance and the guy from India is 3031 1 going to say, yes, Mr. Moose, your balance is 2 zero, no available credit because you are 3 unemployed. But that is beside the fact. That's 4 what I'm saying. So my question is that in 5 today's modern day context where you guys have 6 bosses above you, like Bob Brennan, and I guess 7 the Premier of Manitoba, would politics have it 8 that a larger segment of the jobs that are 9 meaningful and long term can be based out of 10 Thompson and Nelson House, to how would you say, 11 shed light on that so called good business that 12 you want to do with First Nations people. 13 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. The 14 question came back about four times. But I think 15 the question was basically at the end asked again. 16 Would you translate the question, just the 17 question please, not all of the speech, because 18 this is supposed to be a question. So translate 19 the question and we will get to the answer. The 20 question to the effect -- 21 THE TRANSLATOR: (SPEAKING IN CREE) 22 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Mr. Thomas, 23 do you want to provide some of the reply to that? 24 And maybe you want to have some of your colleagues 25 involved as well because the question was asked in 3032 1 English. Mr. Adams. 2 MR. ADAMS: In this case I think it is 3 probably better that I try to reply, and I'm sure 4 Councillor Thomas or the translators will give it 5 the best shot afterwards. As I understand the 6 question, is it possible for Manitoba Hydro to 7 create more job opportunities in Northern 8 Manitoba, specifically places like Thompson and 9 Nelson House. Manitoba Hydro is a very complex 10 organization. We have offices in most major 11 centres throughout the province and a lot of 12 the -- a large percentage of the people that we 13 have employed for us are actually involved in 14 customer service activities. And in those cases 15 it really does make sense for them to be close to 16 the customer, whether that happens to be in 17 Dauphin, or Brandon, or Neepawa, or Winnipeg, or 18 as most people know, we have a fairly significant 19 customer service centre here in Thompson. The 20 administrative staff -- the other thing that I 21 should mention is that we also have a tremendous 22 amount of activities directed at interests outside 23 of the province. As most people are probably 24 aware, we sell a significant amount of electricity 25 outside of the province. We have transmission 3033 1 interconnections with states and other provinces. 2 I think the best answer to the -- I don't know if 3 it is the best answer -- but a good answer to the 4 political question is we do have political masters 5 and it is most important that our senior staff be 6 reasonably close to the politicians. So there is 7 a compelling reason why we do have a significant 8 presence in Winnipeg. It is the political, 9 business, transportation centre of Manitoba, and 10 it is key to the success of many of our 11 activities. 12 The key to success of our generation 13 business is clearly here in the north. And again, 14 actually most of the generation is done in the 15 Gillam area, and we do have a very significant 16 work force based in Gillam, a big office in 17 Gillam. And we also have a very significant 18 presence here in Thompson. I don't know what the 19 numbers are offhand, but we do have a lot of 20 people. 21 A key consideration in wherever we put 22 a building is the functions that will be performed 23 there, the assurance that we need to get adequate 24 supply of the appropriate types of people, and 25 clearly communication systems. 3034 1 The one point that I do think is 2 important to make, on these construction projects 3 we are making a concerted and continuing effort to 4 ensure that the majority, or as many jobs as 5 possible can be picked up and maintained, 6 retained, by northern residents. We will ensure 7 that in the contracts and in the labour agreements 8 there are preferential clauses for northern 9 Aboriginal people and other northern residents. 10 I think I heard a question very early 11 on is who qualifies for the set aside contracts. 12 The main qualification is that you are capable of 13 doing the job. And we don't take that lightly. 14 Obviously, the last thing we need is somebody to 15 take on a job that's bigger than they can do and 16 go broke doing it. But certainly we work with the 17 local Chief and Council. We will work with the 18 local contractor associations, and we will break 19 up the work to the extent that we can to make sure 20 that local entrepreneurs are in a position to bid 21 on the work, do it successfully, make a profit 22 doing it and come back and do it for us again the 23 next time. 24 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Adams. 25 MR. THOMAS: Mr. Chairman, if I may 3035 1 add to that final comment by Mr. Adams. We have 2 been engaged in a process where we have tried our 3 utmost to be very fair to everyone in the 4 community, Mr. Moose, where we, at least all my 5 colleagues from what I have seen, are not playing 6 any favorites with anybody. If you are a NCN 7 member who desires to get involved in some 8 business opportunity that is there, it is 9 identified, and you wish to be a part of it, 10 certainly you have an opportunity just like 11 everyone else to participate. But as Mr. Adams 12 indicated, you have to have the capacity to be 13 able to do the work that you are desiring to take 14 on without it resulting in you going into debt or 15 an inability to make money. We are exploring 16 ways, and there is not just one way to ensure that 17 our people can be involved in benefiting from the 18 set aside contracts. Nothing has been finalized 19 yet, but we are exploring a number of areas where 20 this kind of situation can be -- it can happen. 21 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Do you wish 22 to take a stab at translating what Mr. Adams said? 23 The gist, the essential part of it. 24 MR. SPENCE: Good afternoon everyone, 25 my name is Jimmy D. Spence, one of the translators 3036 1 for the Government. And just to mention that, 2 Mr. Chairman, you mentioned about simultaneous 3 interpretation. If the equipment was here, I 4 think it would be a lot easier for Charlie and I 5 to interpret as people speak. Because sometimes 6 when you are writing down things like that, they 7 seem to talk a little faster than you can write, 8 so it makes it difficult to interpret. (SPEAKING 9 CREE). 10 Maybe just to make another comment 11 with respect to interpretation, those of you that 12 are making presentations and those of you 13 replying, could you make it short, and we can 14 signal you to stop so we can interpret and then 15 continue. Because like I said, it is very 16 difficult when you don't have the simultaneous 17 interpretation equipment. 18 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Thank you, 19 Mr. Spence. I thank you for reiterating the 20 comment that I made a while ago. This is the 21 period for questions. Questions don't take a 22 speech to accompany it. You will have ample 23 opportunity to appear to make your presentations 24 and your comments and views starting tonight and 25 tomorrow. This is the time to ask questions and 3037 1 those should be short. Thank you. 2 MR. SPENCE: (SPEAKING CREE). 3 THE CHAIRMAN: All right, sir, your 4 question. 5 MR. FORTIN: First I would like to 6 introduce myself, if I may. My name is Keith 7 Henry Fortin, and I come from Northern Manitoba. 8 I was born in Fort Churchill, Manitoba. And what 9 brings me to these hearings today is the Clean 10 Environment Commission. The first thing that I 11 would like to do is to apologize to the people at 12 the board, as I'm not very good with questions, 13 and because this is a matter in which regards our 14 environment, then I would like to kind of raise a 15 question that deals with the clean environment. 16 THE CHAIRMAN: I appreciate, and I 17 hope that you will ask a question, and if it is to 18 make a presentation, you will have tonight and 19 tomorrow to do that. 20 MR. FORTIN: I have been told that I 21 only get to come up to the mike once. 22 THE CHAIRMAN: That is not right. 23 MR. FORTIN: Okay. My question 24 through this process, I have seen some things on 25 fish. One of the things that I do know and my 3038 1 father was a pilot in Northern Manitoba for 45 2 years. I have been traveling Northern Manitoba 3 all of my life. I have worked with Manitoba Hydro 4 in creating winter roads that access their 5 communities, that bring fuel in to the very 6 generating systems that bring the power into these 7 communities of Tadoule Lake, Brochet and Lac 8 Brochet. 9 In the past I have dealt with having 10 to open a winter road in South Indian Lake in 11 fluctuating water table that that brought the 12 water levels above the ice and created 13 catastrophic operating conditions for ourselves. 14 Manitoba Hydro has never really gone in to help 15 us. We have moved our winter roads, with my 16 father I have moved the winter roads with the 17 province from Lynn Lake to Brochet to Lac Brochet. 18 My father recently passed on due to a lot of 19 stress brought on to him by the Province of 20 Manitoba in these job related projects. 21 My job with the construction was to 22 maintain and build a winter road to access Tadoule 23 Lake to bring the fuel in that powers up the 24 diesel generating systems in these areas. One of 25 the problems that I had with the South Indian Lake 3039 1 route is the safety, and the concern of truck 2 drivers and operators that would have to work on 3 South Indian Lake and fluctuating water levels as 4 well as the breaks in the ice that take place 5 while you are doing this type of work. 6 One of the other problems that I had 7 was fuel spillage taking place on South Indian 8 Lake and all lake systems that have fuel going 9 into these communities. So the design and 10 implementation of an overland structured route to 11 stop the diesel fuel spillage in to the water 12 systems was essential. So we addressed the 13 province and had done this, and even after we did 14 this, good thing we did, we had fuel tankers go 15 into these places and break hoses and lines off 16 and dump literally full tankers of fuel right 17 across Northern Manitoba. This I have witnessed 18 since I was the one that developed the road and 19 knocked all of the trees down. 20 During this process, my father was not 21 treated fairly as an Aboriginal person. We were 22 all Aboriginal -- I was the only non-status -- I 23 can't call myself an Indian because I'm Metis -- I 24 was the only person that was not of the status 25 people that worked on this project. And we ran 3040 1 into all different kinds of problems even in 2 payment. Now, $750,000 for a guy that has wired 3 200 homes in Northern Manitoba in these 4 communities for KTC, and as well done all of the 5 work, rough-ins, whatever type of work that we 6 have done in Northern Manitoba as Northern 7 Manitobans, we have ended up taking a slap. It is 8 like the province turned around and said, well, we 9 owe you the money, but hey, that is the way it 10 goes. 11 My problem is when we go into 12 development. I was trained in 1986 with a company 13 called Limestone Training Agency which trained me 14 as a heavy equipment operator for Limestone. 15 After receiving training with Limestone Training 16 Agency I contacted Bechtel-Kumagai, who was the 17 leading general contractor on the Limestone 18 project who in turn told me you got your training, 19 but you don't have the experience. So in the 20 result, I did not get a job with the Limestone 21 Generating Project as a trained certified heavy 22 equipment operator on the job because I did not 23 have the experience. I had the training but no 24 experience. 25 My concern is that in Northern 3041 1 Manitoba we try -- there are people that live up 2 here -- we try to do things on our own sometimes 3 just to no avail, it seems that somebody wants to 4 paint a picture that we don't have the ability to 5 do these things on our own. I will let you know, 6 in 1937 my grandfather created hydroelectric power 7 on the south river system. And as far as Jerry 8 Primrose's earlier comment about trappers and how 9 we have lost the ability to know how to do these 10 things, well, I'm here to say that is not true. I 11 was brought up trapping, I was brought up fishing 12 and I was brought up just like the rest of my 13 brothers behind me. 14 And in these environments, when we 15 mess with them, we alter this or that, we end up 16 with a devastating process that implicates us one 17 way or the other. When I listened earlier about 18 the size of low head dam and everybody is worried 19 about the magnitude or the flooding -- the 20 Churchill River Diversion, as I mentioned earlier, 21 my father was a pilot for 45 years in Northern 22 Manitoba, the whole system from South Indian Lake 23 right to Limestone is messed up. There is no 24 turning it around, it is gone. There is no 25 cleaning it up. My only concern is why didn't 3042 1 Hydro do something like this 30 years ago, and had 2 a couple of head dams and created more power? We 3 wouldn't be sitting in this problem today. I mean 4 every time Hydro makes some money, Gary Doer jumps 5 in the dip fund and pulls it all out and gives it 6 away. How are we going to create anything, if we 7 allow our province -- they should be accountable 8 for the monies and what they do at their office 9 levels. I mean, you take a look at some of these 10 communities that are accessing this general -- 11 THE CHAIRMAN: You did tell me, sir, 12 it would lead to a question. I'm still waiting. 13 MR. FORTIN: The question is, is the 14 province and Manitoba Hydro willing to go back to 15 the drawing table on the 33 percent in which they 16 are willing to give? Is that 33 percent of the 17 one dam head or is that 33 percent of all of the 18 rest of them that are within the Province of 19 Manitoba? 20 THE CHAIRMAN: That is the question. 21 Okay. The question is regards the 33 percent of 22 the one dam versus other dams. That is the 23 question that you are asking now. That is your 24 question, sir? 25 MR. FORTIN: One of my other main 3043 1 questions was, I mentioned that I was a Metis 2 person, and being a Metis person a lot of times 3 you end up sitting in the back of things. Well, I 4 have done a significant amount of work for my 5 brother. 6 THE CHAIRMAN: We have heard that, 7 sir, but I thought you were going to help me 8 understand what was the other question. So tell 9 me what the other question is then. 10 MR. FORTIN: The question is will 11 Manitoba Hydro and the province and 12 Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation stand up and recognize 13 the rights of Metis people due to the constitution 14 in 1982, and recognize us that we are people that 15 should be involved in these processes, and I'm 16 just wondering right now if we are or not? 17 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. We have two 18 questions. 19 You are going to tackle 20 that, Mr. Thomas. 21 MR. THOMAS: The first question that 22 was asked, the discussions and negotiations that 23 NCN has had with Manitoba Hydro has been to focus 24 on that one specific dam, which is the Wuskwatim 25 project. And that is the share of our 33 percent 3044 1 that we are looking at. We are not looking at the 2 entire Hydro system throughout the entire province 3 and acquiring a 33 percent ownership to that. Our 4 focus has been on just 33 percent ownership of 5 Wuskwatim, which is significant in and of itself. 6 And with regard to the second 7 question, the constitution provides us with an 8 idea, or the term Aboriginal is included in the 9 constitution. And the Supreme Court cases have 10 defined Aboriginal to include Metis, Inuit, and 11 Indian people. And within that context, when we 12 are speaking of Aboriginal, the Metis are included 13 in that definition. 14 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Mr. Adams. 15 MR. ADAMS: I will try to give a short 16 answer. Manitoba Hydro is not considering 17 allowing anybody to buy into existing dams. It is 18 not allowed under the Manitoba Hydro Act. And 19 even if it was, I don't think it would be in our 20 interest to pursue that. I also want to clarify 21 that we are not giving 33 and a third percent to 22 Nisichawayasihk. We are giving NCN the 23 opportunity to invest, to acquire 33 and a third 24 percent. There is a very significant difference. 25 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 3045 1 MR. ADAMS: The second question is we 2 recognize Metis. We have engaged in 3 consultations, discussions with all of the 4 Northern Affairs communities where the majority of 5 Metis people in Northern Manitoba live. And 6 certainly in the benefit programs, the preference 7 programs and similar sorts of mechanisms that are 8 involved, we consider Metis to be Aboriginal. 9 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir, just wait. 10 Translation first of all. 11 (CREE TRANSLATION) 12 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Did you 13 wish to add to that? 14 MR. SPENCE: I just wanted to mention, 15 Mr. Chairman, with respect to the presentation 16 that the gentleman on the left side did here with 17 respect to the project that saw the impacts and 18 all of that, we did an interpretation of that, of 19 the whole EIS summary, and it is on a Power Point 20 presentation. Like the English is there, but the 21 voice background is in Cree. When some of the 22 people were saying if this could be interpreted, I 23 don't know if we can locate that disk with that 24 presentation on it. And if we do, I was just 25 wondering, I ask you, Mr. Chairman, if there would 3046 1 be time either today or tomorrow or in the evening 2 to show that Power Point presentation? I think 3 that those people that we were doing the 4 interpreting for will get a good understanding of 5 what was presented here today. 6 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. We will 7 inquire about that, and perhaps if we can, come up 8 with that, perhaps we can input that tomorrow 9 morning, as a presentation tomorrow morning. I'm 10 seeing signals from counsel for the proponents 11 that that would be possible for tomorrow morning. 12 This being past 5:00 o'clock, we will adjourn for 13 the time -- sorry, you said you wanted to add 14 something? 15 MR. SPENCE: I just want to interpret 16 what I said. (SPEAKING CREE). 17 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Before 18 everybody goes, we will reconvene at 7:00 o'clock 19 for further presentations this evening. And the 20 Commission secretary wishes to say something. 21 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Chairman, it may be 22 more appropriate if the presentation in Cree could 23 be made available for this evening. Tomorrow our 24 schedule is quite tight in terms of other 25 presentations that are registered. Would it be 3047 1 available this evening? 2 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: We don't have 3 it in the hall. They are driving to Nelson House 4 to get them and bring them back. 5 MR. GREWAR: It may be easier, 6 Mr. Chairman, for this evening in terms of timing. 7 How long is the presentation? 8 MR. SPENCE: The presentation itself 9 is about, I think it is about an hour, a little 10 lower, about 45 minutes. 11 MR. GREWAR: So, it would be easier to 12 accommodate it this evening, and in fact there may 13 be more able to attend in the evening than during 14 the day. So it may be a better time if it could 15 be made available tonight at 8:00 o'clock even. 16 THE CHAIRMAN: If we can get it here 17 and have it for this evening, certainly. So we 18 will play it by ear until we find out if it is 19 available this evening. 20 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: I'm advised 21 that the people have gone to get it and they have 22 also gone to pick up the simultaneous translation 23 equipment so that should hopefully help speed 24 things up. 25 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. So we will 3048 1 hopefully have that tonight. And we will pass it 2 on tonight. 3 4 (PROCEEDINGS RECESSED AT 5:05 P.M. 5 AND RECONVENED AT 7:00 P.M.) 6 7 THE CHAIRMAN: Ladies and gentlemen, we 8 indicated prior to the break for dinner that there 9 was a possibility we could arrange for having 10 simultaneous translation for this evening. This is 11 not possible just yet. It may be that when we have 12 the midway break for the evening, that it might be 13 possible to install things at that time, but it's not 14 yet possible. 15 We will proceed to begin the evening, as we 16 indicated when we began this afternoon, with some 17 presentations. We have so far two presentations that 18 have been indicated to us. So I will call upon first 19 Mr. Darryl Montgomery of the Metis Federation I 20 believe. Mr. Darryl Montgomery. 21 Sir, if you would proceed to introduce 22 yourself and Mr. Grewar will then go on to swear you 23 in. 24 MR. MONTGOMERY: My name is Darryl Montgomery. 25 I'm with the Manitoba Metis Federation. 3049 1 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Montgomery, are you aware 2 that it is an offence in Manitoba to knowingly 3 mislead this Commission? 4 MR. MONTGOMERY: Don't accuse me. I haven't 5 even started. Just kidding, yeah. 6 MR. GREWAR: Then do you promise to tell only 7 the truth in proceedings before this Commission? 8 MR. MONTGOMERY: Yes. 9 MR. GREWAR: Thank you, sir. 10 11 (DARRYL MONTGOMERY: SWORN) 12 13 THE CHAIRMAN: You may proceed. 14 MR. MONTGOMERY: Good evening, Elders, Clean 15 Environment Commission and all in attendance today. 16 My name is Darryl Montgomery and I am the 17 Vice-President of the Manitoba Metis Federation. 18 The MMF is a self-government representative of 19 the Metis Nation within Manitoba. Our authority to 20 represent the Metis people is through transparent 21 ballot box elections held every three years in which 22 every Metis citizen has the right to vote. 23 My submission here today will be very brief as 24 our main submission by the MMF is still to be brought 25 to the CEC in a few weeks in Winnipeg. I do however 3050 1 want to make some brief comments on Manitoba Hydro 2 Development and its effect on the Metis people. I 3 also want to talk about Manitoba Hydro's and 4 Manitoba's continued refusal to deal with the MMF. 5 I, along with Judy Mayer, the VP of The Pas 6 region accompanied our technical people in conducting 7 our own internal consultations with our people. 8 There were ten Wuskwatim workshops across Northern 9 Manitoba and one in Winnipeg with almost 300 Metis 10 representing 35 locals and completing 173 11 questionnaires in attendance. Over and over and 12 again, we heard three themes emerging from our 13 people; that the Metis Nation within Manitoba lands 14 and resources have been and continues to be affected 15 by Manitoba Hydro projects; that the Metis Nation 16 within Manitoba and our government, the MMF have been 17 totally ignored and not engaged in any consultation 18 process; and the Wuskwatim Generating Station and 19 Transmission Line projects will infringe upon and 20 interfere with our Metis title rights and interests; 21 that the Metis Nation within Manitoba believes the 22 projects will lead to a further erosion of our 23 culture because of its potential impacts on our 24 lands, waters and resources. 25 We believe that our -- that the co-proponents, 3051 1 NCN and Hydro, Manitoba and Canada, all have 2 obligations to meaningfully consult with and 3 accommodate the Metis as we are a distinct Aboriginal 4 people with collective rights. 5 The MMF represents the Metis people. 6 Community councils, community association, 7 individuals or other groups do not have the 8 jurisdiction to speak on our behalf regarding our 9 Metis collective right. 10 Invitation to open houses for the purpose of 11 distributing information which is attended by all 12 citizens is not an invitation to proper and 13 meaningful consultation required to be undertaken 14 with Aboriginal peoples. A Metis specific 15 consultation plan needs to be jointly designed by the 16 MMF, Hydro and Manitoba and implemented to negotiate 17 an agreement as to enable full and effective 18 participation of the Metis Nation. 19 Not consulting and accommodating the Metis 20 Nation is contrary to Section 35 of the Canadian 21 Constitution. It is also contrary to the Aboriginal 22 Justice Implementation Commission's recommendations 23 and Manitoba's pledge to implement those 24 recommendations. 25 Recommendation number 4.1 states, 3052 1 "Any future major natural resource 2 developments not proceed unless and 3 until agreements or treaties are 4 reached with Aboriginal people and 5 communities in the region including 6 the Manitoba Metis Federation and its 7 locals and regions who might be 8 negatively affected by such projects 9 in order to respect their Aboriginal 10 treaty or other rights in the 11 territory concerned." 12 13 We believe the meaning of this recommendation 14 is that Manitoba and Manitoba Hydro must consult with 15 and accommodate the Metis Nation through the MMF as a 16 representative of the Metis Nation. 17 This recommendation does not mean that 18 Manitoba or Hydro simply offers a take-it-or-leave-it 19 arrangement in the pre-project training initiative. 20 We were left out and were not spoken to until the 21 last minute and after Canada insisted we become 22 involved. 23 So in summary, please listen to the MMF's main 24 presentation in the coming weeks and the points I 25 have raised today will be elaborated upon. I am sure 3053 1 all your questions will be answered at that time. 2 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Are you prepared to 3 answer questions? 4 MR. MONTGOMERY: It depends. What kind of 5 questions? No, not at this time. I don't think I'll 6 be prepared to answer questions. 7 THE CHAIRMAN: You are the one that provides 8 the answers when the questions are asked. I know 9 you're not one of the groups that's being funded to 10 intervene in this particular process. They are? 11 Yes, sorry, that's what I meant. You are saying that 12 there will be an official presentation. You are not 13 presenting on behalf of MMF tonight? 14 MR. MONTGOMERY: I'll be presenting again in 15 Winnipeg and at that time, I'll have -- I am here by 16 myself so it's not fair that you guys all gang up on 17 me. So I will wait until I have some of my 18 technicians maybe available to support me on some of 19 the questions that you might have. So with that, 20 thank you. 21 THE CHAIRMAN: Just before you go. Is that 22 acceptable to members of the panel or members in the 23 room? What you're telling us is that there will be 24 another presentation which will be the official 25 presentation of MMF? 3054 1 MR. MONTGOMERY: Well, this is just -- 2 THE CHAIRMAN: This is just -- 3 MR. MONTGOMERY: Teaser. 4 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Mr. Bedford. 5 MR. BEDFORD: We can wait until we return to 6 Winnipeg. We would have some questions of the 7 Manitoba Metis Federation. But as I say, they can 8 wait if this gentleman prefers that we ask his 9 colleagues in Winnipeg. 10 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. All right then, Mr. 11 Montgomery, thank you for the presentation. 12 MR. MONTGOMERY: Thank you. 13 THE CHAIRMAN: I now call upon Mr. Bob Wall, 14 the Thompson Chamber of Commerce. Good evening, sir. 15 MR. WALL: Good evening. 16 THE CHAIRMAN: Would you like to introduce 17 yourself then Mr. Grewar will proceed to swear you 18 in. 19 MR. WALL: Yes, my name is Bob Wall. I am the 20 President of the Thompson Chamber of Commerce. 21 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Wall, are you aware that it 22 is an offence in Manitoba to knowingly mislead this 23 Commission? 24 MR. WALL: I am. 25 MR. GREWAR: Do you promise to tell only the 3055 1 truth in proceedings before this Commission? 2 MR. WALL: I will. 3 MR. GREWAR: Thank you, sir. 4 MR. WALL: Thank you. 5 6 (BOB WALL: SWORN) 7 8 THE CHAIRMAN: You may proceed. 9 MR. WALL: As I said, my name is Bob Wall. I 10 am the President of the Thompson Chamber of Commerce. 11 My Chamber welcomes this Commission to our city. Our 12 message is short and concise. 13 We are pleased to see that the Commission 14 includes at least one Northern Manitoban. At least 15 one member is familiar with the region and 16 specifically familiar with this location. My Chamber 17 is encouraged that this Commission has come to one of 18 the locations that will receive the greatest 19 frontline impact from this project. 20 Our Chamber, as well as the citizens of 21 Thompson, are beginning to embark on the adventure of 22 fashioning a city that must transform itself from 23 reliance upon the mining industry to self-reliance. 24 As we work through this transition, the generating 25 station and, more importantly, the decision-making 3056 1 progress regarding this project are crucial to our 2 future. 3 I came to Thompson 20 years ago. For the past 4 15 years, I have been a partner in a Northern 5 Manitoba accounting firm. My clients are basically 6 from the immediate Thompson area but I do travel from 7 Norway House and Cross Lake in the south to Churchill 8 in the north. I have clients as far east as God's 9 Lake Narrows to Lynn Lake in the west. I have seen 10 the impact of past hydroelectric projects in 11 Manitoba. 12 This presentation will attempt to focus on the 13 following topics: environment, economy, 14 self-determination, skilled workforce and ongoing 15 reporting on the progress of the project. 16 As I travel through Northern Manitoba, I 17 repeatedly witness the environmental damage created 18 by flooding the rivers and lakes that feed the 19 hydroelectric dams. Even though I came to Thompson 20 after the damage was done and never saw it before the 21 flood, I can never get over the effect of the basic 22 scars upon our landscape caused by this flooding. 23 My Chamber and I realize that we cannot go 24 back to predevelopment days. We are encouraged that 25 this project will create minimum environmental damage 3057 1 on a waterway that is already damaged by continuous 2 flooding. We encourage Manitoba Hydro and its 3 partners to continue mitigation regarding this and 4 other affected waterways. 5 Since the Wuskwatim project will cause minimum 6 impact upon the environment, our Chamber does not see 7 an environmental reason for not continuing with this 8 project. 9 We see that a large quantity of reliable 10 energy is vital to our Province's economy. Electric 11 energy at a reasonable cost to the provincial users 12 as well as provincial export customers will assist 13 our economy and be part of the possible 14 transformation of Manitoba from a "have not" to a 15 "have" province. Just like the Province of Alberta 16 has built its economy on energy, we too can build 17 part of our economy upon sustainable energy 18 generation. 19 These types of projects can enhance the 20 economy of Northern Manitoba. This project will 21 bring training to our unskilled workforce. 22 Hydroelectric development is an excellent way to 23 build infrastructure in the province and to expand 24 the northern frontier. 25 Our local economy is becoming more reliant on 3058 1 a healthy Aboriginal based economy. The Aboriginal 2 peoples are our new economy. The mining industry has 3 become the old economy. Even if more significant 4 mineral discoveries are made in the next decade, we 5 realize that a new discovery will not build a new 6 city or town or provide ongoing sustainable cash flow 7 for the north. To our Chamber members, an Aboriginal 8 based economy fed by the eventual cash flows from the 9 partnerships in hydroelectric projects will continue 10 to provide us with a healthy customer and consumer 11 base. 12 An Aboriginal based economy for Thompson means 13 expanding our position as a Northern Manitoba service 14 centre. A strong Aboriginal based economy will 15 enhance Thompson as a medical, political, 16 educational, shopping and recreation centre for the 17 surrounding region. 18 Chief Primrose and his council have prepared a 19 direction for their First Nation that will make its 20 best efforts to turn dependence on social assistance 21 and government programs into self-reliance. The 22 proposed partnership with Manitoba Hydro is a key to 23 this direction. 24 The Thompson Chamber of Commerce encourages 25 Manitoba Hydro and the Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation to 3059 1 maintain its partnership as a basic linchpin to the 2 Wuskwatim project. 3 We, in northern Manitoba, have been quite 4 reluctant to follow the suggestions and imperatives 5 provided by experts imported to our region of the 6 province to provide us with direction. Quite often, 7 these experts have not walked a mile in our shoes. 8 They have no concept of life without their own type 9 of infrastructure. They do not realize the vastness 10 of our spaces and the difficulty of living in an 11 environment of poor roads, harsh weather, isolation 12 and the difficulties of communicating with the many 13 separate groups in Northern Manitoba. We live in a 14 unique part of the country. Over the years, we have 15 watched the experts set up poorly prepared programs 16 for us, tamper with our lives and ignore our special 17 needs. We sense now that these people again, as 18 good-hearted as they are, want to guide us to a 19 solution that meets their needs and not necessarily 20 ours. 21 In the case of the Wuskwatim project, it is 22 refreshing to see that a First Nation can determine 23 its own participation in this project. The 24 Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation will determine if it 25 wants to participate. The upcoming decision will not 3060 1 be easy for them. Too many of the Band members have 2 painful memories of the last time Manitoba Hydro 3 approached them to build a hydro dam. We are 4 confident that they will be able to make a thoughtful 5 decision. No matter how they decide either for or 6 against, everyone must respect their decision. That 7 decision is important as any decision that can be 8 made by this Commission. We must allow the members 9 of the Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation the space required 10 to make this decision without interference. 11 The Thompson Chamber of Commerce encourages 12 NCN to continue its process to a fair informed vote 13 regarding the decision to participate in the 14 Wuskwatim project. 15 The Thompson Chamber of Commerce encourages 16 the Province of Manitoba and the Government of Canada 17 to include the decision of this upcoming vote in the 18 process of determining the future of the Wuskwatim 19 project. 20 Just like other parts of the province, we have 21 people who are unemployed and yet decent jobs go 22 unfulfilled. The Thompson Chamber of Commerce sees 23 this as one of the most significant detriments to 24 business expansion in Thompson and the surrounding 25 area. The basic life skills training provided in 3061 1 anticipation of this project as well as the ongoing 2 trades training will enhance our skilled labour pool. 3 Many of these new trainees will spend some time on 4 the construction of Wuskwatim, but more importantly 5 they will be able to assist in the reconstruction of 6 northern housing and other infrastructure long after 7 Wuskwatim has been built. 8 Should Wuskwatim be the beginning of a series 9 of hydroelectric construction projects, then the 10 training provided for this project might provide the 11 start to a good career for a current trainee. 12 The Thompson Chamber of Commerce encourages 13 the ongoing training provided by NCN to its members 14 and other participants. 15 We realize that the hydroelectric construction 16 of the 1960s and '70s caused significant disruption 17 and damage to the First Nations peoples. We also 18 recognize that much of the damage was created by 19 misinterpreted promises as well as promises not kept. 20 We also realize that if these difficulties are 21 repeated, should Wuskwatim be built, the rift between 22 the peoples of the north will not be reconcilable. 23 Both partners must make their best efforts to ensure 24 that the aims, goals and benchmarks for this project 25 are clearly defined and that actual performance is 3062 1 consistently monitored to these benchmarks and goals. 2 Should this project continue, the Thompson 3 Chamber of Commerce encourages NCN and Manitoba Hydro 4 clearly and publicly announce the important 5 benchmarks for this project and they find an 6 effective way to report their progress to the 7 important stakeholders. 8 In conclusion, I thank you for allowing the 9 Thompson Chamber of Commerce to provide these 10 thoughts to your Commission. You are trusted with 11 very important decisions regarding this application. 12 We hope you will be able to gain all the information 13 required to make these decisions. The Thompson 14 Chamber of Commerce encourages the Band, Manitoba 15 Hydro, the Manitoba Hydro Board and you to support 16 this project. Thank you. 17 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Mr. Grewar, would 18 you please -- 19 MR. GREWAR: Yes, Mr. Chairman. We would 20 assign Exhibit number OTH 1004 to the Thompson 21 Chamber of Commerce presentation to the Manitoba 22 Clean Environment Commission Wuskwatim Generation and 23 Transmission Project, OTH 1004. 24 25 3063 1 (EXHIBIT OTH 1004: Thompson Chamber of 2 Commerce presentation to the Manitoba Clean 3 Environment Commission Wuskwatim Generation 4 and Transmission Project) 5 6 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Just before I pass 7 on to questions, I want to advise the people standing 8 in the back that there's quite a few chairs available 9 throughout the room here. So if you wish to sit 10 down, you are welcome to do so. 11 Questions? Members of the Panel? Members in 12 the room, any participant in the room who wishes to 13 ask questions of Mr. Wall? 14 Come up to the mike, please. If you wish to 15 ask a question, you have to come up to the mike, 16 please, and identify yourself and you have to speak 17 to the presentation. 18 MR. MOOSE: Yes. Mr. Wall, currently does NCN 19 have a membership status at the table with the 20 Thompson Chamber of Commerce? 21 MR. WALL: I think some of the Band-owned 22 businesses may have a membership. Mystery Lake Hotel 23 may have a membership and there may be some 24 memberships out at the -- out in the community. But 25 I do not believe that the First Nation itself has a 3064 1 membership. 2 MR. MOOSE: Yes. Well, how do you say, given 3 that the magnitude of the project that is on the 4 horizon, how do you say, will the Chamber of Commerce 5 even though you've given us, how do you say, your 6 support pertaining to this project will the focus 7 change possibly on how business is conducted with the 8 First Nation or to that effect? 9 MR. WALL: I'm not quite sure what you're 10 getting at. I mean business is conducted with the 11 First Nation and the members of the First Nation and 12 the members of the Thompson Chamber of Commerce on a 13 daily basis and I hope that it will increase. 14 MR. MOOSE: I guess given the magnitude of 15 this project, as I've stated earlier, will the 16 economic impact of NCN upon Thompson be more positive 17 and, how do you say, a more meaningful relationship? 18 Will the Wuskwatim project, how do you say, give us 19 more input on how business is to be conducted in 20 Thompson as far as the perspective of the Thompson 21 Chamber of Commerce given what we bring to the table 22 now? 23 MR. WALL: I'm not quite sure what your 24 meaning of that question is. Like I say, business is 25 conducted on a basis. We provide the service as best 3065 1 we can. More business or less business will 2 determine how our members provide business. Are you 3 suggesting that the business practices have to change 4 in the community? 5 MR. MOOSE: No no. What I'm speculating is 6 let's just say you have 50 houses and those are 7 businesses, right? 8 MR. WALL: Um-hum. 9 MR. MOOSE: A lot of Chamber of Commerces 10 across Canada, the way they work for those that don't 11 know, is sometimes you have to get permission from 12 the local Chamber of Commerce to open up a new 13 business. So what I'm saying is for NCN members 14 that, you know, wish to open new businesses as they 15 pertain to supply and demand of the Wuskwatim 16 project, will they be welcome with, how do you say, 17 open arms by the Chamber of Commerce? 18 MR. WALL: The City of Thompson, its business 19 environment and its business community is not a 20 closed shop. Anybody can open up a business in 21 Thompson. We encourage by far local people to 22 participate. We consider NCN as a local area. We 23 consider the peoples there as our neighbours and our 24 friends and we would be encouraging them to establish 25 as many businesses as they wish to in the community. 3066 1 By far, that would be our goal. 2 MR. MOOSE: Okay. So in other words, you're 3 welcoming any future NCN business expansion into 4 various areas. Is it, how do you say, would be 5 beneficial to the economy of Thompson? 6 MR. WALL: Yes. We see a short-term benefit 7 from the construction project itself but we really 8 see an ongoing benefit because NCN will be a partner 9 in this project and in turn will be receiving a 10 portion of the dividends generated from this project 11 and in turn will be using those dollars, as we 12 understand it, to be spent back in its community and 13 to improve the lot of the people that are there. And 14 we look forward to having that economic engine 15 continue to grow and to prosper as our neighbour and 16 as a customer for our goods and services as well. 17 MR. MOOSE: I guess in closing for my 18 comments, thank you for supporting NCN. Thank you 19 very much. 20 MR. GREWAR: Sir, could we just get your name 21 for the record once again? 22 MR. MOOSE: Joe Moose. 23 MR. GREWAR: Thank you. 24 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Mr. Mayer. 25 MR. MAYER: It's not a question, Bob. I think 3067 1 that for Mr. Moose's benefit and for the benefit of 2 the rest of the people who aren't aware of this, 3 Thompson Chamber of Commerce and Mr. Wall in 4 particular were very vocal supporters of NCN's 5 application for urban reserve status for the Mystery 6 Lake Motor Hotel. That's still an issue in this 7 community. Now that I think the casino issue is 8 probably off the table, the fact is that the Chamber 9 of Commerce were very supportive of NCN's application 10 in that regard. 11 THE CHAIRMAN: I didn't quite recognize the 12 question in that but it's on the record. Mr. Wall 13 heard a question. 14 MR. MAYER: Isn't that true? 15 MR. WALL: Yes, it is. 16 THE CHAIRMAN: It must be that I'm not 17 familiar with the tone. Mr. Wall, do you want to 18 respond to that question? 19 MR. WALL: I agree whole-heartedly, yes. 20 THE CHAIRMAN: The answer is yes 21 whole-heartedly. Are there other questions? Yes? 22 MR. FRANCOIS: Hi, I'm not from the U.S.A. 23 Yeah, I had been listening. 24 THE CHAIRMAN: Would you say your name for the 25 record, sir? 3068 1 MR. FRANCOIS: Okay. Raymond Francois, Nelson 2 House, treaty number 934. I'd like to ask maybe a 3 couple of questions. 4 THE CHAIRMAN: Please proceed. 5 MR. FRANCOIS: And I'd like to speak to -- 6 I'm supposed to have a lawyer here representing me, 7 right, Nelson House? 8 THE CHAIRMAN: But at this point, the lawyer 9 will not ask questions for you, you will have to ask. 10 MR. FRANCOIS: Okay. I'd like to ask, these 11 resources, there's going to be a lot of stuff coming 12 through these resources, right. You've been -- 13 anyway, we're gonna sign anything, right? We didn't 14 sign nothing but if we do, are we going to lose our 15 treaty rights or our land resource? Are we going to 16 have anything to do with it? 17 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir, you want to ask this 18 question of Hydro I believe, right? 19 MR. FRANCOIS: Whichever can answer that 20 question. 21 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm sorry? 22 MR. FRANCOIS: Whoever can answer that 23 question. 24 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. Well, right now, there's 25 only one gentleman that can answer that question and 3069 1 I think you want to ask the question of Hydro. And 2 Hydro will be back at that table in a while and you 3 can ask them the question because I think you want 4 them to respond, unless Mr. Wall sees himself 5 prepared to answer the question. Would you come back 6 to ask the questions in a short while or do you want 7 to ask a question on Mr. Wall now? 8 MR. FRANCOIS: Well, whichever is easy, 9 whichever is better. Like maybe I'll ask him. Let's 10 see if he has the right one. Who is the right one 11 I'm supposed to ask, Hydro or him? 12 THE CHAIRMAN: If that's the only question you 13 want to ask, then you have to ask the question to the 14 partners in the project which is NCN and Hydro and 15 they will be back at that table shortly to answer 16 questions and I invite you to come back in a short 17 while to ask that question again. 18 MR. FRANCOIS: Okay. I'll ask again. 19 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Right now the 20 questions are to Mr. Wall who represents the Chamber 21 of Commerce of Thompson. And anyone who has 22 questions of Mr. Wall is welcome to come to forward. 23 I guess, Mr. Wall, the Chamber of Commerce was 24 not only short and concise but clear as well. 25 MR. WALL: Thank you very much. 3070 1 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. Are there 2 other people in the room at this time who wish to 3 make their presentation at this time who wish to come 4 forward and make a statement, express a view, an 5 opinion? We know we have some registered 6 participants who will make presentations tomorrow and 7 we had two that had registered before the break for 8 dinner but there may be others who have come in since 9 then and did not get an opportunity to register but 10 wish to make a presentation. If so, you are welcome 11 to come forward and make a presentation however long 12 or however short you wish to do. 13 I see none. And that being the case -- yes. 14 You can come to the table there or to the mike, 15 whichever you want. You can sit down if you wish and 16 speak in the mike. Just identify yourself first of 17 all. 18 MS. TROTTIER: My name is Rachelle Trottier. 19 I grew up here in Thompson. I'm a youth and I don't 20 speak for all youth. I'm a Metis youth though and 21 I'd just like to present some comments. 22 I have been concerned over the Hydro projects 23 since I was in university and have been following 24 along. And my comment basically is that I don't 25 think that we should pursue hydroelectric 3071 1 developments in our province because -- or in our 2 country because the fundamental issue here is our 3 energy economy and how wise we are with the power 4 that we do have. And until we answer the questions 5 of conservation, I don't believe that we should 6 explore further development. 7 I wonder when it will end. Here, Conawapa, 8 Keeyask Falls, Gillam Island, I just wonder when 9 are we going to answer that fundamental question of 10 how we are conservative with our energy that we have 11 to begin with. And on that note, I believe it's 12 possible and I think that there's hope. 13 I remember in Manitoba when nobody believed 14 that we would have gasoline without lead and yet it 15 happened. And I think that if we worked towards our 16 policy and legislation to ensure that we're all 17 conserving our energy, and it could be as simple as 18 the Minnesotan said, as low energy light-bulbs, 19 forcing everybody to use them. Couldn't we find our 20 megawatts there? 21 And on being a youth, I just want to say that 22 I don't ever want to see a time when the youth can't 23 go to the land and find a waterway that hasn't been 24 affected. That's all. Thank you. 25 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Any other person 3072 1 who wishes to come forth? Ms. Matthews Lemieux? 2 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: We have the executive 3 summary of the EIS Power Point with Cree translation. 4 It's now available if you wanted to watch that at 5 some point this evening. I am also advised that the 6 translation is also set up now so that it can go as 7 well. 8 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Do we have to take some 9 time to set this up or is this something that can be 10 set up very quickly? 11 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: It's just with a 12 regular Power Point. 13 THE CHAIRMAN: And how will the translation, 14 it will be on the -- 15 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: It's on the disk. 16 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. We have said before the 17 break for dinner that if we could get this 18 presentation in Cree, we would present it this 19 evening. So we will proceed with that now and then 20 we will continue with questions of the proponents 21 after the presentation. 22 You can stretch your legs for a few minutes. 23 They will have to set this up. 24 (BRIEF RECESS) 25 THE CHAIRMAN: Ladies and gentlemen, would you 3073 1 please sit down. Are we ready to proceed? Mr. 2 Thomas will make a few comments before we proceed. 3 MR. THOMAS: I have been advised by those that 4 have done the translations that this translation 5 effort was done prior to the submission of the 6 filings of the EIS documents. And I'm also advised 7 that this information has been filed with the 8 Commission at that time. 9 We had a team of four, sometimes five people 10 involved in the translation. That's Jimmy D. Spence, 11 Henry Wood, Terry Linklater, one of my colleagues, 12 Councillor Doug C. Linklater and Charlie James Hart I 13 believe. It took him about a month altogether. 14 Translation into Cree has been quite difficult. A 15 considerable period of time has been spent on 16 translating and then having to put it into this 17 format. So all together, it took about a month or so 18 to produce the translation effort. And I'm not quite 19 sure exactly how long it is but here it is. 20 21 (SLIDE PRESENTATION IN CREE) 22 23 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Can we have the 24 Hydro Panel back in front, please. We will continue 25 with the questions. There was one person at least 3074 1 that was trying to raise a question earlier. Yes, 2 this gentleman is coming back up. Thank you. Your 3 name, sir? 4 MR. FRANCOIS: Raymond Francois, Nelson House. 5 Yeah, I was going to ask the resources we have around 6 us, hey, are we going to lose all of it? Like I'm a 7 Treaty Indian, right. Do I lose my rights on 8 anything once things are signed? Because I wanted to 9 know what I'm going to sign for before I sign it. I 10 want to know the meaning of it. Sometimes you can 11 sign something that doesn't really mean what it is. 12 But if you go down deeper into the work, you can tell 13 exactly what it really means and what you're signing 14 for. You know, that's what I'd like to know. 15 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. The question has 16 been asked. Mr. Adams? 17 MR. ADAMS: On the simple question, are you 18 going to lose your treaty or Aboriginal rights if NCN 19 enters into agreement with Manitoba Hydro, no. 20 THE CHAIRMAN: Is that no maybe or no for sure 21 or no absolutely? 22 MR. ADAMS: As far as I know, it's no 23 absolutely. 24 THE CHAIRMAN: Can anybody else confirm that? 25 Mr. Thomas? 3075 1 MR. THOMAS: From the presentation that was 2 just done, when it comes to the protection of Treaty 3 and Aboriginal rights, there are certain obligations 4 that have to be met as per the Supreme Court's 5 decisions where a consultation has to -- a proper 6 consultation has to occur. And if there is to be any 7 impairment of any Aboriginal or Treaty rights, that 8 it must be minimal. 9 I think we've shown from our presentation that 10 the facts state that there will be very minimal 11 impairment of our treaty rights as per the 12 presentation and this does not mean that we will lose 13 our treaty rights. They will be impacted somewhat 14 but it's not a situation that involves losing those 15 Treaty rights. 16 MR. FRANCOIS: Okay. I have one more question 17 here. As a member of Nelson House, I listened to the 18 elders what they say, hey. And they've got a pretty 19 good understanding what might happen and what's going 20 on and they know from before. So my point of view is 21 just go ahead and do or sign whatever I want, hey. I 22 ask the Committee a recommendation from the Elders. 23 They know, hey. That's why we must respect them and 24 listen to them. There's no partiality in eldership. 25 They are all the same. That's all I've got to ask. 3076 1 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 2 MR. THOMAS: I didn't understand the question. 3 Was there a question? No? Just a comment? Okay. 4 Thank you. 5 THE CHAIRMAN: It was a comment made in 6 regards to the Elders. 7 MR. FRANCOIS: I'll say again, there's no 8 partiality, there's no difference between Elders, 9 right, they are all the same and we must respect 10 them. We must honour them. Of course, I read the 11 word of God and I'm not against anybody or anything. 12 But what I believe -- what I read is what I believe. 13 And I've seen it from the past many times. Of course 14 if we don't respect the Elders, we shorten our lives. 15 And I have seen it come to pass. There is no 16 difference. We must listen to them. 17 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Thank you. Other 18 questions? 19 MS. KOBLISKI: Hello. 20 THE CHAIRMAN: State your name, please. 21 MS. KOBLISKI: Carol Kobliski from Nelson 22 House. I was at the hearings in Winnipeg. I wasn't 23 here to hear everything from the beginning. I just 24 got in this afternoon. All of you people that are 25 sitting up here represent Hydro, right? No? Which 3077 1 ones do? 2 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. So you have your 3 answer. NCN and Hydro. 4 MS. KOBLISKI: Okay. I have a few questions 5 that have been addressed to me by some members. So 6 I'm just here to address them to Elvis Thomas and 7 some of the other people here that made some 8 comments. 9 One of the things that disturbs me is that 10 what jobs are guaranteed for our people? Are they 11 guaranteed in writing that our people are going to 12 benefit from this project? Like from my 13 understanding, our people have to be experienced 14 first before Hydro is going to allow them to work on 15 this project. How much experience are you asking for 16 from our people? Because from my understanding, they 17 just put out a notice in our community last month who 18 wants to go for training to be a carpenter and an 19 electrician and that takes quite a while to 20 accomplish. 21 So this is what I'm asking Elvis. What 22 guarantees are our young people going to have from 23 this project? Are they guaranteed these jobs, not 24 the low paying jobs but the higher jobs? 25 MR. THOMAS: The question that's being asked 3078 1 is one that we have long considered as a future 2 development team. We have asked to see what we can 3 do in looking at this project to ensure that we do 4 not repeat what happened with the Limestone project 5 where unfortunately our people were the last hired 6 and the first to be let go. And we looked at that 7 situation and made a conscious decision that we did 8 not want to have a repeat of that scenario with 9 regard to the Wuskwatim project. 10 We have tried to do our utmost as leaders and 11 also as negotiators on behalf of NCN to ensure that 12 training that is required is there for our people to 13 prepare them for the jobs that are going to be coming 14 about from Wuskwatim. 15 We have received funding from various levels 16 of government, the Federal Government, different 17 departments, plus the Province and Manitoba Hydro to 18 have our people be involved in pre-project training 19 activities. One of the things that we have done 20 quite successfully with regard to making sure that 21 the training that is required is there but it also be 22 appropriate types of training. 23 We approached the Province to see if they had 24 anything in their books that resembled what we are 25 trying to do for preparing for Wuskwatim and the 3079 1 construction or redoing of the junction road. For 2 example, everyone in the community has seen that 3 occur. We have put conditions in the contract to do 4 that project so that they would make use of our own 5 people, make use of our own trainees, to make sure 6 that they have appropriate kind of training on 7 appropriate kinds of equipment in preparation for the 8 project so that they would have an opportunity to 9 attain the opportunities that they trained for for 10 this particular project. 11 We also have negotiated situations where we 12 are wanting to have some direct contracts for NCN. 13 In those kind of circumstances, we will have an 14 opportunity to hire many of our own people directly. 15 With regard to guaranteeing jobs, perhaps in 16 some instances there can be some guarantees. In 17 others, what we can do is prepare our people as best 18 as we possibly can, provide them with the 19 opportunities to go and seek those opportunities that 20 are available to them. 21 Now, in regard to us trying to get guarantees 22 for as many of the jobs as possible, we have 23 encountered quite a bit of difficulty in being able 24 to achieve that. But nonetheless, we have negotiated 25 for a preference for NCN members. The problem that 3080 1 we run into is Human Rights legislation. We can't do 2 things that will discriminate against others. So we 3 have had to work our way around, not around, but work 4 our way through with those kind of conditions to see 5 what we can do to try and maximize the opportunities 6 for our people. 7 So try as we may, I don't believe that we can 8 provide any absolute guarantees in that sense. 9 However, we do -- we will try to hire as many of our 10 own people as possible for the many areas that are 11 going to be needed. 12 MS. KOBLISKI: Thank you. I just wanted to 13 clarify that because there are a lot of young people 14 here and they had been mislead. I understand where 15 you're coming from where we did have our young people 16 talking -- I mean working on the highway at the 17 junction project. And one of them was my son 18 Terrance because he took the heavy equipment operator 19 training in Nelson House. And they were chosen to do 20 the job with the contractors there. But again, even 21 though they were certified heavy equipment operators, 22 they were given very little. They were given low 23 paying, you know, monies even though they did the 24 same thing that the contractors did. And this is 25 something that really bothered them. They were only 3081 1 being paid $9.00 an hour and the other guys were paid 2 like $20 to $25 an hour. 3 This is something that they were asking me to 4 ask you. Is this the same thing that's going to 5 happen to them out there because of the lack of 6 experience that they have? And it's like what Hydro 7 said here, we are only going to hire people that are 8 experienced. You can't just come to somebody and say 9 here is my certificate and then expect them to be 10 hired. This is something that our men were asking. 11 MR. THOMAS: I can't answer for Hydro but with 12 regard to our efforts, we're trying to do the best we 13 can to provide the training that is needed. And the 14 trainees are -- we're trying to provide the trainees 15 with the appropriate kind of experiences that they 16 are going to need so that it will help to address the 17 issue of you don't have any experience. I know 18 you've got your certificate but you have got no 19 experience to back that up with. 20 So in our training planning, we incorporate 21 the experience into the overall plan, specifically to 22 try and avoid these kind of situations that you 23 mentioned. But with regard to Hydro, I guess maybe 24 Ken will speak to that issue. 25 MS. KOBLISKI: Well, how much experience do 3082 1 you want? 2 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Adams? 3 MR. ADAMS: Maybe I can expand a little bit. 4 The issue of experience on construction projects is a 5 very difficult one all around. If you've got a huge 6 great big crane on the job with a boom about 100 feet 7 wide swinging a great big load on the end and I'm 8 sitting on the ground there, I'd like to think that 9 the person operating it is very experienced and very 10 good at what he does or she. I don't mean to be 11 sexist in these things. 12 The question is how does he or she become 13 experienced? And that is a significant issue 14 throughout the whole industry because a generation of 15 experienced people has passed through. There hasn't 16 been a lot of heavy construction in this province in 17 the last 10 years. And construction unions and 18 construction contractors are all concerned about 19 renewal of the workforce. If a contractor has got a 20 million dollar piece of equipment, he wants to know 21 that it's in safe hands. 22 So what we can do is, as Councillor Thomas 23 said, is we can create a training initiative so that 24 young people have the opportunity to start the 25 training. But ultimately, the training has to be 3083 1 done on the job. I mean if you're going to operate a 2 grader or if you are going to be a carpeter, you can 3 do so much in the classroom, you can do so much in 4 simulation exercises but ultimately you've got to do 5 it on the job. 6 So what we do is, in our contracts, we specify 7 that there will be a certain number of apprentices or 8 trainees, depending on the trade, at various levels. 9 And if the contractor doesn't meet those 10 requirements, then there's penalties in the contract, 11 financial penalties. 12 The second thing that we do is in the 13 collective agreement, which is the Burntwood Nelson 14 Agreement, we negotiate with the unions again often 15 trying to create training ratios like so many 16 trainees per journeyman and again at different 17 levels, make sure that it's compatible with the 18 contracts. And also, as Councillor Thomas said, 19 within the collective agreement, there is a hiring 20 preference and a discharge preference in reverse. 21 So if we can get the local young people, and 22 it's really for the most, again not exclusively, but 23 it's mostly the young people that we are targeting, 24 if we can get them to the point where they can 25 qualify as a trainee or an apprentice on the program, 3084 1 the contractor will specify that he needs so many 2 carpenter trainees or apprentices in first year, 3 third year, and so forth, and similarly for the 4 electricians, pipe fitters, millwrights, which are 5 the high paid jobs, specifies what he wants. The 6 preference will go to the northern Aboriginal 7 candidates who are ready, willing and able to go to 8 the job. 9 If the contractor is specifying a too high 10 level of skill for the job required, there is a 11 mechanism where, collectively on site, the various 12 parties involved can look at that and tell the 13 contractor you're pushing the envelope here. You 14 don't need somebody with four years experience, you 15 can do this piece of work with somebody with two 16 years experience. And that will run all the way 17 through from driving trucks and heavy equipment and 18 similarly through the apprenticeship programs. 19 I wish I could guarantee something. But 20 particularly the field of labour relations, it's very 21 very difficult to guarantee anything for anybody. 22 But all we can do is create the environment, create 23 the conditions where if somebody reaches adequate 24 level of training -- and part of the reason why we 25 try to start this training program two to three years 3085 1 ahead of the project is to enable people to get 2 through those first couple of years to the point 3 where they can bring some skills to the job and be 4 seen as a valuable employee by the contractors. 5 MS. KOBLISKI: How much experience are you 6 looking for from our people? 7 MR. ADAMS: Well, it will vary. It depends on 8 the job. It depends on the requirement. Obviously 9 in some cases, there will be jobs where you or 10 specific requirements where a lot of experience is 11 required. There will be others where very little 12 experience is required. But you can't have everybody 13 completely inexperienced. What you need is a mix of 14 people on the job where you've got some very senior, 15 very experienced people and a whole range down to the 16 neophytes and make sure that the skills are 17 appropriately passed down. 18 MS. KOBLISKI: You see the thing that worries 19 me is, like what Mr. Thomas is saying, we don't want 20 the same thing to happen again with this project as 21 what happened with the CRD. Jobs were promised to 22 our people with that last project. And a lot of 23 those promises were not met to this day. And the 24 thing that bothers me is Hydro has the nerve to come 25 back to the Native people again and offer them 3086 1 another project, and offering us jobs again and we're 2 hearing the same story over and over again. We're 3 hearing the same pattern that Hydro came to with the 4 first deal. 5 Can you understand why I'm asking this 6 question? There's not really any trust or any 7 guarantee from you guys whatsoever to our people. 8 Like we're very concerned when you say, well, there's 9 these jobs and there's these jobs and, you know, this 10 concerned us because like what Mr. Thomas said, you 11 know, we're trying to change that. We're trying 12 to -- we're trying to make sure that our people get 13 proper employment, proper jobs. 14 But see, for us to stand here and to agree on 15 the Wuskwatim project and to vote on it, right now, 16 for myself, I'd say no because of what I'm hearing 17 here and because of the whole process that's been 18 taken place here, this whole Wuskwatim project. I 19 don't see our people benefitting that much from it 20 but putting us in a hole. That's what I see. 21 And the way I see it, all Manitoba Hydro has 22 done is painted a pretty picture of all the projects 23 that they've built up here in the north. But have 24 they looked back at the pretty pictures that they 25 so-called put up and the effects that they left 3087 1 behind? 2 This is something that sits with us people 3 today. And I know we're told to move on, you know, 4 there's something more better out there. We're going 5 to receive something more. I hear that quite a bit. 6 But one thing I want to tell Hydro is the past will 7 always be with us no matter what because of the 8 effects that it has had on us. 9 THE CHAIRMAN: Question? 10 MS. KOBLISKI: That's all I'd like to -- I 11 just want to know about what guarantee we have. 12 THE CHAIRMAN: Please, please. 13 MS. KOBLISKI: The other thing that I would 14 like to ask Mr. Thomas is this other gentleman had 15 asked you about our treaty rights. That concerns me 16 also with this project. Are our treaty rights being 17 infringed on and who is protecting our rights? 18 MR. THOMAS: I believe the answer to that 19 question has been provided in the presentation and 20 also in my response to the gentleman who asked the 21 question. 22 THE CHAIRMAN: The question was asked, ma'am, 23 just a little while ago. I don't know if you were 24 here and it was answered. 25 MS. KOBLISKI: Can we have that in writing 3088 1 from you as a leader in Nelson House? 2 MR. THOMAS: It's contained in the transcripts 3 of these proceedings and a copy of the information 4 that has been presented is available to the public as 5 far as I am aware. 6 MS. KOBLISKI: Okay. Okay. Thank you. 7 THE CHAIRMAN: Ms. Kinew. 8 MS. AVERY KINEW: Ms. Kobliski, is 9 that your right name? You might want to check the 10 transcript from I think it was last Wednesday 11 night when the two unions presented in Winnipeg to 12 discuss their view of how the jobs will be 13 allocated. And I think -- which union was it -- 14 the machinists, operating engineers, talked about 15 certain kind of crane operators, you would need a 16 ratio of two experienced to one apprentice. And 17 the tower crane, I think it was four established 18 master crane operators to one apprentice. So 19 there would be certain kind of ratios there. 20 But I'm interested in following up 21 this a little bit more. I don't know whether 22 tonight is the appropriate time, but it is in the 23 Constitution of Canada, that affirmative action is 24 guaranteed against. It is not provincial or even 25 Canadian human rights wouldn't go against 3089 1 affirmative action in a situation where like First 2 Nations have been systematically denied 3 employment. So I wonder that Hydro doesn't feel 4 that you can go further than just preferential 5 treatment, that you couldn't have some quotas? I 6 think that affirmative action has changed over the 7 years. It is not just quotas, it is preparing 8 people for training and then you go into the 9 competitive market. But just from the history 10 that people in the north are dealing with, I think 11 they seem to be asking for a lot more than be 12 prepared for a competitive environment. 13 MR. ADAMS: I can perhaps respond to 14 that. We too are of the opinion that quota is a 15 passe. And we prefer not to put targets in 16 because the ideal target would be 100 percent. 17 Now anything -- because the preference clause 18 stays on. And in the previous arrangement, there 19 was a hiring preference until we reached a certain 20 target level. Once the target level was reached 21 the preference came off. This time around our 22 intention is that the preference clause stays on, 23 no matter how well we are doing. Now again these 24 things are subject to negotiation with the various 25 unions. But as you mentioned, the experience and 3090 1 observation with the unions is that they are not 2 at all opposed to these sorts of things, partly 3 out of self-interest. We all deal out of 4 self-interest. But partly out of a recognition 5 that there is an issue that hasn't been dealt with 6 adequately before, and that they want to help us 7 be part of the solution. 8 MS. AVERY KINEW: Is there any kind of 9 list of what jobs -- I have seen lists of jobs, 10 but actual numbers of, so that people would have a 11 better idea of what is going to be possibly 12 available? 13 MR. ADAMS: We have lists. A better 14 way of putting it is we have estimates. But when 15 push comes to shove, it is the contractor who 16 decides if they want ten truck drivers and two 17 loader operators or 12 and 3. So while what we 18 have is a best estimate based on lots of 19 experience, but even those numbers are subject to 20 a lot of variation. I don't know if they are in 21 the EIS or not. 22 MR. THOMAS: With regard to the 23 question that is being posed by Commissioner Avery 24 Kinew, I have got Cam here to respond to that. We 25 did do a presentation on the numbers and they are 3091 1 very general, and the ranges are provided. And 2 within that we try to provide training. I mean, 3 we are not just looking at this particular project 4 per se and thinking that it is the end all and be 5 all when it comes to training and employing our 6 people. It will be a temporary situation that 7 will last five to six years. And the jobs that 8 will be available will last for only X periods of 9 time within that five to six year period. So, the 10 training that we are trying to provide is 11 something that we look at to the satisfaction of 12 the actual jobs that are going to be available, 13 but we are also thinking long term. 14 What is NCN as a community going to 15 need for our future needs, current and future 16 needs? We need carpenters, we need heavy 17 equipment operators, we need truck drivers, 18 plumbers, electricians, et cetera, et cetera. 19 Those are valuable trades to us, because they can 20 be transferred back to the community once the 21 project is finished. In addition, we also have 22 future opportunities that may arise if other hydro 23 projects come about. And so there is a really 24 high value to the training, and also the 25 opportunities that come with the Wuskwatim 3092 1 project. But Cam will give you some of the 2 numbers that we are looking at with regard to 3 these jobs that are available. 4 MR. OSLER: We've looked at in detail 5 the jobs that Hydro's experts have estimated and 6 we looked at the skill requirements for each of 7 these different types of jobs. And the 8 presentation that I gave earlier, I had a graph up 9 there which had very broad differences between 10 what we call designated trades, which are the 11 carpenters and electricians and plumbers, and the 12 other skills which would be heavy equipment 13 operators, truck drivers and among other things 14 also labourers. I didn't get into it today as 15 much as I did in Winnipeg, but the skill 16 differences are very big as has just been said 17 here. For a carpenter or an electrician or 18 somebody going to a designated trade, they have to 19 interested in this as a career. They are going to 20 need four years of not only some classroom work 21 but also on the job work to get fully qualified to 22 get the top pay, to get the better pay scales. 23 But to work on this project, they will 24 need at least two years of experience and 25 training, experience on other job work, in order 3093 1 to have a chance to be qualified for an 2 apprentice. And if they had three years they 3 would have a much better chance. About 20 percent 4 to 25 percent of the designated trade jobs on the 5 site will be apprentices for people who are on the 6 learning curve. 7 I don't have it available to show 8 people, but I could make copies of it and provide, 9 but a carpenter working on this project, Wuskwatim 10 project, could not work enough hours to get the 11 full number of work hours you would need to become 12 a fully qualified carpenter. If you want to 13 become a fully qualified designated trade, a 14 carpenter, electrician, you need lots and lots of 15 work experience. So what this project offers for 16 people from NCN is if they can get qualified 17 enough to be an apprentice, they will have the 18 opportunity in their area to get lots of hours 19 towards becoming a fully qualified carpenter. And 20 if other projects like this also happen 21 afterwards, people in this region will get the 22 opportunity to get the hours needed to become 23 fully qualified and get the full pay scale. So, 24 that is carpenters and electricians. 25 I think the NCN training plan, I want 3094 1 to sort of step back and say there is a detailed 2 NCN training plan, not a Hydro training plan, but 3 an NCN training plan. NCN has gone out to get 4 funding for this training plan. You are building 5 an A tech training facility for this training plan 6 in your community. You have been doing an awful 7 lot of work to develop the ability to train your 8 own people, and other people I believe is your 9 objective, to do the types of jobs that are going 10 to help your community in the long run, right? So 11 it is not Hydro, with all due respect, that is 12 setting this up, in my opinion, working for both 13 of you. If anything it is the two of you working 14 together, but it is certainly NCN taking the lead, 15 not Hydro. Hydro is providing funding, but you 16 have to put up the training, and you have to pick 17 what training you want to do. 18 You said carpenters, electricians 19 because they would be valuable to you in the 20 community, you would have jobs afterwards. But 21 you think in your training plan, and it is filed 22 in this hearing and I will get to it in a minute, 23 the training plan is probably looking at out of 24 100, or 120, 130, whatever the numbers are you end 25 up training, the carpenters and electricians and 3095 1 the designated trades are very important. They 2 are more than you have seen for a long time, but 3 they are 20 to 25, they are not 100. They are 4 part of the mix, they are not everything. The 5 rest of the skills are in the non-designated 6 trades. And what I said in Winnipeg is about 7 45 percent of the non-designated trade jobs on 8 this project will require a year or less training 9 and work experience in order to be qualified for 10 that job and to get the proper pay scale. The 11 rest of them, almost all of them, are three years 12 or less. 13 So, when you got this opportunity to 14 work on this road, my understanding from 15 listening, to talking to people, was this was an 16 opportunity for some people to get hours of work 17 experience so they would be more qualified and be 18 able to get a better pay scale if you were to get 19 the contract that you are negotiating for for the 20 road, for this project. And that would be an NCN 21 contract if you got it, and you would be able to 22 hire your own people and they get a chance to get 23 more hours and more work. 24 So it is NCN's planning to try and 25 break this cycle, as I understand it, so people 3096 1 get the chance to train before the project comes, 2 get the chance to work on these different projects 3 before the project comes and then get the 4 opportunity to get more hours by working on this 5 project. 6 And if other projects come along, the 7 preference that we have assumed in this EIS is a 8 first preference for hiring for all of the 9 Aboriginal residents in the Burntwood/Nelson 10 region. So, NCN would not only be part of this 11 first preference for Wuskwatim, they would be part 12 of the first preference if this assumption becomes 13 valid, for Gull and Conawapa. So your people 14 would not get just one chance at doing this this 15 time, they might get more than one chance in terms 16 of this opportunity. 17 But bottom line, these are skilled 18 jobs. They require commitments of people and they 19 require a lot of people to work together, the 20 unions, the proponents in this project, the 21 community of NCN, and the individual people have 22 got to play a very big role in making their own 23 careers. There is nobody can promise them these 24 things or guarantee them. That is what we have 25 learned. It would be a sham for someone to 3097 1 promise something like that. It won't work. They 2 can promise the opportunity, they can't promise 3 the result. Even in promising the opportunity, 4 there is a lot of work that has to go in and a lot 5 more decisions have to be made before all of the 6 funding and everything is finalized. 7 But all of this is in the record in 8 the first round answers to NFAAT, number 13a, 9 where the training plan is included. 10 MS. KOBLISKI: And all of these are on 11 the public register at NCN and in the public 12 library in Thompson? 13 MR. OSLER: And the full training plan 14 is attached there as one of the documents. And I 15 would be more than happy at the right time and the 16 right place to go into more detail. But I can 17 tell you the detail that we went in to try and 18 develop this with NCN and the Governments and 19 Hydro, because the Governments are putting money 20 into this, required looking at each one of these 21 jobs and looking at how many years of experience 22 each one would take, and frankly an agonizing 23 level of detail, but to try and get to the point 24 that you are asking, what does it take for someone 25 to get somewhere and how can people best help 3098 1 them. And this isn't everything, but it is -- I 2 can tell you we are doing our absolute best in 3 trying to figure the best way to do this. There 4 will be mistakes made. We will have to monitor, 5 to use a word that we were using a lot last week, 6 we will have to learn as we go along. But I don't 7 know why it isn't worth the effort is I guess the 8 bottom line point. If we don't try, we haven't 9 got any chance of doing this type of thing. 10 Anyway, there is a lot of detail that I can get 11 into but -- 12 MS. KOBLISKI: Thank you. I would 13 like to make a comment. I would like to ask you 14 something. Mr. Thomas was saying that the jobs 15 that are required in Nelson House are to be a 16 carpenter and electrician, you were saying, that 17 would benefit our community. Why just those jobs? 18 Why can't our people benefit themselves with the 19 higher positions? 20 THE CHAIRMAN: I believe those were 21 examples given, ma'am. 22 MS. KOBLISKI: I know, but I'm just 23 asking Elvis that. 24 THE CHAIRMAN: You asked that question 25 in Winnipeg and he gave you that answer and you 3099 1 came back with that same question. 2 MR. THOMAS: I perhaps maybe can 3 provide the same answer. We have learned an awful 4 lot. Don't be mistaken by the fact that we are 5 talking to Hydro about a partnership. All of us 6 as a people have felt the impacts of the Churchill 7 River Diversion project. We know how much it hurt 8 our people. We are very well aware as current 9 living people today about what has happened to our 10 people. We carry that with us. It is in our 11 minds, it is in our hearts, it is in our souls. 12 We carry that. 13 We don't just automatically or blindly 14 give our trust over to anybody. Trust is a very 15 sacred thing. It has to be earned. And you will 16 give back the degree of trust that has been 17 earned. So it is not something that we are going 18 to blindly be giving over to Hydro. Hydro is 19 going to have to work continuously on earning and 20 maintaining the trust relationship that we are 21 trying to establish. 22 Now with respect to the inquiries 23 here, yes, we have considered those kind of 24 concerns. We do not want our people to be just 25 digging ditches in this particular project. We 3100 1 don't want them to be having an opportunity only 2 for the low level paying jobs. We are looking at 3 a very broad spectrum, as included in our 4 presentations, we have targeted a number of areas 5 we think are going to be benefiting the community. 6 Not only for now, but also in the long run as 7 well. With regard to the business opportunities, 8 there will be a need for people in management 9 positions to help oversee that area. We will need 10 financial clerks. We will need people trained -- 11 as a matter of fact, we have initiated training in 12 our community to ensure that we can have our own 13 CA and CGAs in the community. We have a lot of 14 people who are interested in that. They are 15 currently going through some training to get those 16 qualifications. It is not an easy route for them. 17 It is going to take a long time because they are 18 working at the same time while they are going to 19 school. So, we have taken high level positions as 20 well with the opportunities that are presenting 21 themselves to NCN, and we are factoring that into 22 our overall planning. 23 MS. KOBLISKI: I would like to ask you 24 another thing, Elvis. Did we have our own 25 independent environmental study group or was it 3101 1 joint with Hydro? 2 MR. THOMAS: We -- in having an 3 opportunity like this present itself, again we 4 have learned from the past. Prior to the '96 5 agreement being ratified, when the initial 6 Churchill River Diversion project was occurring, 7 there was very little legislation in existence at 8 the time to make sure that any environmental 9 impacts were thoroughly and properly assessed. 10 This time around we have legislation that ensures 11 that environmental impacts will be looked at. We 12 have engaged the services jointly as between NCN 13 and also Manitoba Hydro that we would like to have 14 a team put together that will look at the 15 environmental impact issues, and we jointly chose 16 to have an environmental management team in place. 17 And the people that you see here are a reflection 18 of that. We didn't have our very own independent 19 team. But we did have many of our own people be 20 involved in this process that also provided us 21 with their knowledge of things, as I indicated, in 22 the traditional knowledge component of our 23 presentation. 24 MS. KOBLISKI: Don't you think it 25 would have been better if we had our own 3102 1 independent environmental study group instead of 2 being joint partners of Hydro because of the 3 mistrust? For myself I think we should have had 4 our own independent environmental group on behalf 5 of Nelson House do that. And for you to join with 6 them without consulting with your people, I think 7 you should have asked your people first before 8 making a decision like that. 9 MR. THOMAS: I think again, and Hydro 10 will speak to this issue themselves as well, we 11 have taken all of those things into consideration 12 and it was decided by Chief and Council to 13 establish a team that would be made up of our own 14 people. And with our own people being involved in 15 a process, such as the one that was chosen, we 16 felt was a really good option to pursue. And that 17 was the path that we decided to follow. 18 I'm not quite sure how to put this 19 forward. I think that when you are at odds with 20 people, when you are in a conflict situation, when 21 it is between enemies, the ability to achieve 22 something that will help solve problems is very 23 limited when you are in those kind of positions. 24 Whereas between friends, the chances of us working 25 together in a good way, and producing positive 3103 1 results is a better option to pursue. And that is 2 part of our reasoning. 3 And we did go to the community to ask 4 to see what they thought of things. And we did 5 have an agreement in principle put forward to the 6 community that reflected your concerns. And we 7 did indicate that we would jointly develop and 8 produce an environmental impact assessment for 9 this process that would come before this 10 Commission. 11 MR. ADAMS: I would like to add a 12 little bit to that. I want to make sure that 13 everybody understands that Mr. Rempel and Mr. 14 Davies, Mr. Osler and Mr. Hicks, who unfortunately 15 was not able to travel here, are each the senior 16 representative of completely independent 17 consulting companies who have no ties to Manitoba 18 Hydro, other than that they bid on a contract with 19 Manitoba Hydro and NCN, and were the successful 20 bidders. They are not Manitoba Hydro's 21 consultants, they are independent consultants 22 whose livelihood depends on their reputation. So 23 from our perspective they are independent. 24 MS. KOBLISKI: The other thing that I 25 would like to ask is I hear Mr. Thomas always 3104 1 saying we, and Chief and Council; the thing that 2 bothers me is we as a community are not being 3 properly informed. 4 THE CHAIRMAN: Question please. 5 MS. KOBLISKI: The other thing that I 6 would like to mention to the CEC board of 7 directors or committee is why are they not having 8 these meetings in Nelson House and in South Indian 9 when we are the people that are being affected by 10 this project? It is only a 45 minute drive for 11 you people to come down that way and meet with our 12 people, so that all of our band members can hear 13 what is going on, not just here in Thompson. This 14 is something that we had asked our leaders, if it 15 was possible for you guys to come down to Nelson 16 House even for one day, to come and have your 17 meetings there, because not everybody can come 18 here or go to Winnipeg. This was something that 19 was brought up because it does affect us as a 20 community. 21 MR. MAYER: I would like to respond to 22 that. Firstly, the issue as between the residents 23 of Nelson House and the leaders and Government of 24 Nelson House is really outside the scope of this 25 Commission. This Commission is here not to decide 3105 1 on how you as a community deal with your issue. 2 We are here to at least make recommendations to 3 the Minister on the environmental effects, some of 4 it being socioeconomic as well, but on the effects 5 of the project and how it will affect Manitoba's 6 environment and to some extent the world's 7 environment. We are also here to deal with the 8 issue of whether or not this will adversely effect 9 the consumers of Manitoba Hydro. Those are our 10 two projects. I'm sorry, we spent most of tonight 11 talking about issues that appear to be between 12 NCN's leadership and NCN's opposition. I can't 13 describe it any other way. We are missing some of 14 the point on what this Commission is supposed to 15 be doing. We can't solve your problems. We are 16 not here to do that. We are here to make 17 recommendations to the Minister. And one of those 18 recommendations will not be whether or not you or 19 your friends vote in favour of whatever referendum 20 is eventually put before you. That is out of our 21 jurisdiction. That is why we are not there trying 22 to solve that problem for you. 23 MS. KOBLISKI: I understand where you 24 are coming from. I'm not asking you to solve our 25 problems for us. Even yourself, you live in 3106 1 Thompson here, don't you? And you said you have 2 seen the effects of the last Hydro project. It is 3 easy for you to say that you live in Thompson 4 here, but you don't live in the areas where we 5 live. You haven't experienced what we have 6 experienced as native people. It gets frustrating 7 some times. I know where you sit and what you do. 8 THE CHAIRMAN: The opportunity was 9 afforded, and I see that many people are here to 10 take up that opportunity to raise -- to make their 11 views known and to raise questions as you have 12 done yourself. 13 MS. KOBLISKI: Thank you. 14 MR. THOMAS: If I just may provide 15 some comments. We have done a great deal of work 16 as leaders of our community, also as a future 17 development team. We have developed information 18 while we have been working hard to negotiate on 19 behalf of the best interests of the community. We 20 have engaged in a community driven process that 21 has never really been done before in the 22 community. So a lot of changes have occurred 23 since the last time we dealt with the Northern 24 Flood Agreement of '77 and also even the 25 implementation agreement that was done. 3107 1 We've taken what was done with the 2 implementation agreement and we have expanded upon 3 it considerably to ensure that we maximize 4 community participation. We have had open houses, 5 we have had open meetings, we have had workshops, 6 we have had focus group meetings, we have had 7 opinion surveys done, we have engaged the TV 8 station, the radio station, the presentation that 9 you heard here of an overview in Cree, and also 10 English, has been done. It has been done in the 11 community. I've done a number of presentations in 12 the community. We have extended invitations to 13 you and also to your group to come before us and 14 meet with us, so we can talk about the issues of 15 concern. 16 So we have done quite a bit of work 17 consulting with our community. To tell me that 18 you are not informed about things, I think is not 19 appropriate. If you are not doing your part to 20 learn about what we are doing, I can't force you 21 to learn about those things. But we do maximize 22 our best efforts to make sure that our community 23 is as informed as possible. We are going to have 24 two referendums in total for this particular 25 initiative. That has never been done any where. 3108 1 And for a referendum to kick into gear, you have 2 to provide information to the community. And we 3 have done that with the agreements in principle 4 and we are going to be doing that for the PDA. We 5 have also engaged in an interim provision of 6 information as to what to expect for the future 7 with respect to us doing the summary of 8 understandings that has also been put forward to 9 the community. 10 In addition, we have hired many people 11 to talk about the project. This project in and of 12 itself is no secret. Everybody knows about it. 13 Our community knows about. Other First Nations 14 know about it. The City of Thompson, Brandon, 15 Winnipeg, all of these places know about this, 16 even the world is watching us. 17 MS. KOBLISKI: I know you mentioned 18 you wear many hats on this portfolio that you 19 hold. 20 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm sorry, I thought 21 you had finished. 22 MS. KOBLISKI: One more if I could. 23 THE CHAIRMAN: Is it your last? 24 MS. KOBLISKI: Yes. You mentioned 25 that you wear many hats holding this portfolio. 3109 1 And I would like to just address one of those hats 2 that you wear as a councillor for our community, 3 is how would you know what is best for us as 4 community members when you are hardly ever there 5 to know what we need? You can not stand there and 6 represent me as an NCN band member and say this is 7 what is best for her. Thank you. 8 THE CHAIRMAN: That is not within the 9 scope. If you are asking -- you just continue to 10 have your debate here. It is not a real question 11 about the project. The time is -- I'm sorry, sir, 12 I was just going to -- do you have lots of 13 questions? Because we are supposed to adjourn at 14 ten and we are supposed to reconvene at 9:00 15 o'clock tomorrow. I would like to bring the 16 meeting to an end. You are going to be here 17 tomorrow? 18 THE WITNESS: No, I won't. 19 THE CHAIRMAN: Sorry, sir? Sir, I'm 20 chairing this meeting. I listened to you this 21 afternoon, but you are not at the mike. Let's 22 respect one another here. We have indicated that 23 the meeting would adjourn at 10:00 o'clock. It is 24 almost quarter after. 25 MR. FRANCOIS: Two questions, I won't 3110 1 be here tomorrow. 2 THE CHAIRMAN: Go ahead, ask your 3 question. 4 MR. FRANCOIS: My name is Carl 5 Francois. I'm a member of Nelson House. My first 6 question was, the NFA, is it a treaty or not? 7 THE CHAIRMAN: The NFA, is it a treaty 8 or not? 9 MR. ADAMS: I don't know, 10 Mr. Chairman. I personally don't feel qualified 11 to comment on matters of law and I don't see how 12 that is pertinent to the Wuskwatim project. 13 MR. THOMAS: I can't provide a legal 14 opinion on the status of the NFA either. 15 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir, what I'm hearing 16 is that you are asking a question that has legal 17 implications. You are wanting a lawyer's answer 18 or a court's answer. Okay. 19 MR. FRANCOIS: There is a lawyer 20 sitting there. 21 THE CHAIRMAN: But you have asked the 22 panel. Next question. 23 MR. FRANCOIS: My next question would 24 be the PDA, is that a termination agreement? 25 THE CHAIRMAN: The PDA, would you tell 3111 1 me for my own understanding what you are referring 2 to? 3 MR. FRANCOIS: I'm asking, you are 4 giving jurisdiction to the Government or Hydro in 5 order to put the Wuskwatim project up and running. 6 THE CHAIRMAN: The project development 7 agreement, is it -- what did you say? 8 MR. FRANCOIS: Is it a termination 9 agreement with Nelson House. 10 MR. THOMAS: To terminate what? 11 MR. FRANCOIS: Your treaty rights, 12 your land and water and resources. 13 THE CHAIRMAN: That was answered 14 already, sir. And the answer was no from what I 15 heard a while ago. 16 MR. FRANCOIS: Thank you. 17 THE CHAIRMAN: We will adjourn until 18 9:00 o'clock tomorrow. 19 20 (ADJOURNED at 10:15 P.M.) 21 22 23 24 25